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Whistleblower uncovers London police hacking of journalists and protestors

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Re: Whistleblower uncovers London police hacking of journalists and protestors

#241

Post by balthamael »

kbenson wrote: post #234
balthamael wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only viable forms of government i see now is a benevolent enlightened dictator or a scientocracy. The only way to remove manipulation is to remove emotion from politics. So you either need someone who knows what needs to be done and can't be influenced otherwise, or a system that is not easy to influence, like one based on facts and evidence. Enlightened dictator is a high risk high reward type of deal though, ev…

> The only way to remove manipulation is to remove emotion from politics. I don't think that's the only way. At least, I think there's a few things to try first. If information dissemination is being exploited due to new technology, first we should try to fix that in various ways. There are various other problems that might or might not have full or partial solutions as well. When you have a hole in the henhouse that…

The thing is, I think it's the only real way to achieve anything of lasting impact.

There will always be ways to exploit various systems, you can only react, not prevent in those cases. Because of entropy, complexity is always increasing. It means that not only are the problems going to be getting harder to address individually but that new problems and systems will be created at an exponentially increasing rate. Those problems are superficial in nature and more like symptoms in any case, than real causes. You have to address the root of the problem and that is human nature. Instead of chopping of the heads of a hydra, shoot in in the heart or something.

As long as politics can play on emotions, people will be liable to act irrationally and thereby manipulated.

Re: Whistleblower uncovers London police hacking of journalists and protestors

#242

Post by passivepinetree »

alexandercrohde wrote: post #91
dovdovdov wrote: post #9

Almost makes you think we only have terrorism just so the countermeasures can be exploited to keep the masses under total control. ;)

I don't know if I believe that, however the spectre of terrorism is WAY overblown (more people die slipping and falling in the shower). So I do find it really unreasonable that it's used as an excuse to monitor our communication...

That's a super interesting stat. Do you have a source for it that I can use if I want to steal your quote?

Re: Whistleblower uncovers London police hacking of journalists and protestors

#243

Post by [deleted] »

RubenSandwich wrote: post #139
dTal wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, at the very least, "the sixth was nearly a match" is pretty damning. "Nono, you've got it wrong, MY password is hunterTHREE - you see there was this incident..."

I'm gonna continue to play Devils advocate here and that person in question could of merely confirmed that it was close. But realistically I think your right. People will gladly handout passwords to people who sound authoritative. It's amazing to me how many DEFCON talks begin with: "So we just pretended to be X and asked for their password and got it."

[deleted]

Re: Whistleblower uncovers London police hacking of journalists and protestors

#244

Post by arise »

anqh4 wrote: post #82
andy_ppp wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You make it sound as if the article was written by a journalist, not a person who had been leaked to and is a part of the story. Anyway, that whistle blower and the leaker could both get 14 years under proposed anti-whistleblower laws: The Guardian failed to point out in its report that new legislation proposed by the Law Commission would make the author of the anonymous letter, Jones herself, and the journalists at…

>that whistle blower and the leaker could both get 14 years under proposed anti-whistleblower laws Why do we have to consider what essentially is treason to a nation to be ok? You have to go to the electorate and tell them "you see, this guy just leaked these documents which put our nation's security at risk. Shall we just set him free?". I'm sure that'll go well... you have Snowden/Assange to see how it went.

It's not treason to warn your nation about internal usurpers, and that's what some police were guilty of here. In a democracy, power belongs to the people, and when the government takes that away and operates in excess of their remit, they are the ones who are guilty of treason, not the whistleblower.

Re: Whistleblower uncovers London police hacking of journalists and protestors

#245

Post by richmarr »

cies wrote: post #105
DanBC wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Environmental groups had plans to shut down nuclear reactors by blocking water cooling pipes in the sea. Animal rights protestors have firebombed[1] several UK department stores (for selling fur), and abattoirs and milk distribution depots; dug up a corpse from a grave and held the body hostage; rescued animals from labs and caused damage to the labs; Far right groups have rallies that attract considerable violence;…

I do not consider potential property damage to be a form of terrorism (or otherwise a danger to the public). Potential property damage is not something that I consider a reason for surveillance. We can wait till the damage happens and the go look for the perpetrators. There's real "people harming" evil all over our societies. Evil towards rather innocent people that destroys lives and kills, often benefiting the perp…

> I do not consider potential property damage to be a form of terrorism...

So under your definition of terrorism someone needs to be injured? You're diverging from the dictionary a little there.

Re: Whistleblower uncovers London police hacking of journalists and protestors

#246

Post by _delirium »

richmarr wrote: post #245
cies wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do not consider potential property damage to be a form of terrorism (or otherwise a danger to the public). Potential property damage is not something that I consider a reason for surveillance. We can wait till the damage happens and the go look for the perpetrators. There's real "people harming" evil all over our societies. Evil towards rather innocent people that destroys lives and kills, often benefiting the perp…

> I do not consider potential property damage to be a form of terrorism... So under your definition of terrorism someone needs to be injured? You're diverging from the dictionary a little there.

I don't find it useful to use the term beyond attacks aimed at actually terrorizing people. Stuff like suicide bombs in crowded public squares or metros, sarin gas releases, etc. A particular attack doesn't have to actually have any victims to qualify (it could be unsuccessful, or the outcome could be lucky), but it at least has to have that goal, or else how is it in any way "terror"?

Some kinds of animal-rights attacks on shops or universities could qualify, especially ones using indiscriminate methods like car bombs. But I don't see how it makes sense, apart from wanting to use pejorative hyperbole, to use "terrorism" to describe sabotage that damages equipment on a lab or farm, things like throwing paint or glue on things, short-circuiting electronics, etc. We already have the perfectly good words "sabotage" and "saboteur" to describe those acts and the people who carry them out. If these all start being grouped under "terrorism", then we end up with absurdities like describing the Boston Tea Party as an 18th-century terrorist attack, which I've actually seen people do, but I don't think is useful.

Re: Whistleblower uncovers London police hacking of journalists and protestors

#247

Post by apeace »

retube wrote: post #178
NumberCruncher wrote: post #134

>> This alleged criminality is the result of a deliberate government policy of using the police and security services to [...] protect company profits and the status quo. [...] it is not simply the case that the police and security services are just being used by the government. In fact, the police and security services are becoming emboldened to take a more independent role as direct agencies of the ruling elite, ov…

> No comments needed Except that, you know, not sure how impartial the World Socialist Web Site is likely to be!!

To clarify, that quote was directly from Jenny Jones, a member of the UK Parliament. It was her editorializing, not the socialist web site.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/mar/22/whistl...

Re: Whistleblower uncovers London police hacking of journalists and protestors

#248

Post by easytiger »

justinjlynn wrote: post #31
easytiger wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This level of discourse is very embarrassing for HN.

Yes, your comments are. Clearly we needed reminding and the point needed to be underscored.

Eugh. Such a shame

Re: Whistleblower uncovers London police hacking of journalists and protestors

#249

Post by eric_h »

pritambaral wrote: post #226
RubenSandwich wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm gonna continue to play Devils advocate here and that person in question could of merely confirmed that it was close. But realistically I think your right. People will gladly handout passwords to people who sound authoritative. It's amazing to me how many DEFCON talks begin with: "So we just pretended to be X and asked for their password and got it."

OT: I see you've used "could of" multiple times. Just wanted to say it's "could have". Cheers.

Or could've, which is clearly the pronunciation s/he was going for.

Re: Whistleblower uncovers London police hacking of journalists and protestors

#250

Post by anigbrowl »

retube wrote: post #178
NumberCruncher wrote: post #134

>> This alleged criminality is the result of a deliberate government policy of using the police and security services to [...] protect company profits and the status quo. [...] it is not simply the case that the police and security services are just being used by the government. In fact, the police and security services are becoming emboldened to take a more independent role as direct agencies of the ruling elite, ov…

> No comments needed Except that, you know, not sure how impartial the World Socialist Web Site is likely to be!!

They are biased but ime they're pretty honest about it, and still aspire to a high standard of truthfulness in reporting. It's not a regular part of my media diet but I'd say they have far more integrity than (say) Infowars or Democracy Now.
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