How to Raise a Creative Child – Step One: Back Off (2016) • Hacker News Board

Re: How to Raise a Creative Child – Step One: Back Off (2016)

#191

Post by jackvalentine » Mon, Apr 17, 2017, 8:40 AM UTC

lacampbell wrote: post #188

jackvalentine wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think that you quite understand the point I'm making? By taking part in every day life, using civil infrastructure, having contact with other people you're a part of society with all that goes with that. It logically follows that the only way to extricate yourself from the situation is to leave society and all the benefits it brings. There are people who have done that! However I don't see how you can possibl…

By remaining in proximity and contact of other humans you're their responsibility and they are yours. I reject this completely. That's your reality, not mine.

Please respond to the rest of my post, not just the weakest line.

Re: How to Raise a Creative Child – Step One: Back Off (2016)

#192

Post by InclinedPlane » Mon, Apr 17, 2017, 8:46 AM UTC

greggman wrote: post #190

I'd be really curious to hear from engineers that were made to play a musical instrument in childhood. I know some people believe there's a correlation between good engineers and musical study (no idea if that's true, only that I've read it before) I also know that I've rarely met a child that wants to practice their musical instrument. Usually they have to be made to do it "No TV, no internet, no video games until y…

100% true. Learning to play a musical instrument in childhood has positive long term effects in a variety of ways (improved neural plasticity past middle age, improved spatial reasoning ability throughout life, etc.) There's a pretty substantial and growing body of research on the subject now.

Re: How to Raise a Creative Child – Step One: Back Off (2016)

#193

Post by hexane360 » Mon, Apr 17, 2017, 9:16 AM UTC

conorh wrote: post #100

smackingly wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe I'm biased because I'm a no-name physician at a community hospital, but the "best doctors" in my eyes are the ones with the best outcomes, lowest utilization, highest efficiency and highest patient satisfaction. These measures don't correlate well with the physician's credentials. I learned this in residency, which I did just down the street from a "top" university hospital. We out-performed that place on every…

> "These measures don't correlate well with the physician's credentials." This. I think I've even posted about this here before. This has been my wife's experience too (surgeon). She trained with highly regarded academic surgeons that set the treatment recommendations and standards for her field. Then during her job search she went to a center with, well, surgeons not at all academic and she had a life changing momen…

It seems to me like there should be some middle ground. I don't think the best practicing surgeons are necessarily the best academic/theoretical surgeons (although there's definitely some overlap). That's not to say academic surgeons don't need experience, but I think there's definitely different skill sets involved.

Re: How to Raise a Creative Child – Step One: Back Off (2016)

#194

Post by hexane360 » Mon, Apr 17, 2017, 9:19 AM UTC

rjsw wrote: post #42

aleem wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From one of the comments on the article > Backing off will no more produce a creative genius than pushing your child. Neither strategy makes the slightest difference to what is essentially an autonomous process. Beethoven's father did not back off. And Lars von Trier's parents left him to his own devices. Both are geniuses and both hated their childhood. > My guess is that most parents who follow Adam Grant's spuriou…

> When it comes to raising children the golden rule is that there is no golden rule. The greatest scientific creative genius of recent memory, Richard Feynman realized this when he tried to teach his children and discovered that what worked for his son did not work for his daughter. Proof that genetics has some effect, his daughter was adopted.

"Proof" is a very strong word for one data point/anecdote with thousands of possible lurking variables.

Re: How to Raise a Creative Child – Step One: Back Off (2016)

#195

Post by myle » Mon, Apr 17, 2017, 9:32 AM UTC

mathattack wrote: post #167

Consider the nation’s most prestigious award for scientifically gifted high school students, the Westinghouse Science Talent Search, called the Super Bowl of science by one American president. From its inception in 1942 until 1994, the search recognized more than 2000 precocious teenagers as finalists. But just 1 percent ended up making the National Academy of Sciences, and just eight have won Nobel Prizes. 8 out of…

The article "forgets" that the pool of gifted children is much smaller than the general population. Of course, when you have a group of x people, and another group of λx people, you need to check whether you are getting the desired outcome from the two groups on a ration 1:λ and not on a 1:1 ratio.

The article is missing this point.

Re: How to Raise a Creative Child – Step One: Back Off (2016)

#196

Post by hexane360 » Mon, Apr 17, 2017, 9:35 AM UTC

Jimmy wrote: post #69

ucontrol wrote: post #59

A dull article ridden with blatantly false claims and oversimplification of an otherwise complicated topic. >Gifted children who have a noticeable head start and whose skill development begins remarkably early _do not_ usually end up being game changing professionals in their respective fields. Really now? >Developing a skill set early on leads to competence in what is learned but stumps creativity and chances of inn…

>>Gifted children who have a noticeable head start and whose skill development begins remarkably early _do not_ usually end up being game changing professionals in their respective fields. >Really now? Um, yes? Are you challenging the article's claim here? Depending on how strictly we're defining "game changing", only a small handful of people, even those who were "gifted" as children, ever accomplish anything really…

I see two problems with this.

1. You're defining "gifted" in a much narrower way than the article's arguments. Being a high achiever in math doesn't really encapsulate the meaning the article assigns when it creates a gifted vs. creative dichotomy.

2. It's pretty pointless to talk about the achievement of one group without comparing it to your control group. Do you think 10% of the general public is tenured at a top-50 university or a CEO of a Fortune 500 company? What about 10% of the creatives the article lauds? You know, without seatbelts there's only around 25 deaths per billion vehicle miles in the US. Nevermind that seatbelts cut that rate in half. . .

Re: How to Raise a Creative Child – Step One: Back Off (2016)

#197

Post by hexane360 » Mon, Apr 17, 2017, 9:39 AM UTC

justjonathan wrote: post #157

"From its inception in 1942 until 1994, the search recognized more than 2000 precocious teenagers as finalists. But... just eight have won Nobel Prizes." Just?!? Said differently: slightly less than 1/2% of identified gifted teenagers in this group went on to win Nobel prizes. Given the rarity of Nobel prize winners and the difficulty of predicting future Nobel prize winners (as teenagers) that strikes me is pretty a…

To put that in perspective (thanks to another comment), there have only ever been 8 Nobel Prize winners from India.

Re: How to Raise a Creative Child – Step One: Back Off (2016)

#198

Post by trusche » Mon, Apr 17, 2017, 9:42 AM UTC

smackingly wrote: post #78

replicatorblog wrote: post #63

In adulthood, many prodigies become experts in their fields and leaders in their organizations. Yet only a fraction of gifted children eventually become revolutionary adult creators. My daughter is being treated for Leukemia by some amazing doctors at Boston Children's Hospital. To my knowledge, none of the health care professionals at this world-class institution have won Nobel Prizes in medicine. All the same, for…

Maybe I'm biased because I'm a no-name physician at a community hospital, but the "best doctors" in my eyes are the ones with the best outcomes, lowest utilization, highest efficiency and highest patient satisfaction. These measures don't correlate well with the physician's credentials. I learned this in residency, which I did just down the street from a "top" university hospital. We out-performed that place on every…

OT - why do you consider ECMO a "wild thing"? I ask since our daughter was born with CDH and ECMO came up in the discussions at the time (she didn't need it, luckily). Ireland doesn't have one to date AFAIK.

Re: How to Raise a Creative Child – Step One: Back Off (2016)

#199

Post by ianai » Mon, Apr 17, 2017, 9:43 AM UTC

padobson wrote: post #9

The parents of ordinary children had an average of six rules, like specific schedules for homework and bedtime. Parents of highly creative children had an average of fewer than one rule. I grew up in a household where compliance to parental authority was the prevailing rule. This made me fairly compliant as an adult (which opens you up for exploitation by peers and authority figures), but this wasn't too difficult to…

What sort of therapy? Like did you do CBT, or something more standard?

Re: How to Raise a Creative Child – Step One: Back Off (2016)

#200

Post by gommm » Mon, Apr 17, 2017, 10:23 AM UTC

xherberta wrote: post #30

pcarolan wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good point about Feynman. The only thing I've found to work is trying everything until something starts to work. Of course, you start with the books to get ideas for what to try next. Ive got one of those kids that bounces off the walls. The older I get though the less I care. Some kids just can't sit still. Kids are society's problem and when we don't build spaces for them to be kids, its gonna happen.

> Kids are society's problem Respectfully, I'm sad for children whose parents think society is going to look out for them. Every kid deserves a couple of people who take personal responsibility for their behavior and well-being. I have a pretty high tolerance for kids being bouncy and boisterous, but it's always nice to see parents giving the sort of information that helps them become considerate:("Look, that woman's…

> French kindergarteners spend 90 minutes sitting down to a white-table-cloth four course meal each day during school. This is done because it's considered essential for them to learn the table manners and appreciation of the cuisine that will allow them a lifetime of enjoyable, civilized dining.

I wish that were true... They do get a 3 course meal (appetizer, main dish and desert) but it doesn't last 90 minutes and it's not a white table cloth meal... That's embellishing the reality a little bit. There was more decorum than a self service (we were served the food at the table as a kid in kindergarten in primary school) and the food quality is definitely better than most countries in primary schools* but that's about it.

As a kid in kindergarten though we would be told off if we were too boisterous during the meal so I guess that kind of qualifies in term of table manner.

That said, I did find that kids in the US tended to be louder and less well educated than I was used to. The same applies for kids in Japan below the age of 5 (parents there have a laissez faire altitude during the early ages).

(*) Middle schools and high schools are another story. Lunch is a self service concept (so no one brings the meal to the table) and the quality of lunch is lower (it was downright atrocious when I was in middle school to the point where I would usually skip most lunches). This may have changed though.