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How to Raise a Creative Child – Step One: Back Off (2016)

nytimes.com

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Re: How to Raise a Creative Child – Step One: Back Off (2016)

#181

Post by lacampbell »

jackvalentine wrote: post #161
lacampbell wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not the one that used "problem" to describe kids, btw. FWIW I quite like kids. But saying strangers kids are my responsibility because of "society" is not true at all.

Kids are a part of society, and society has a stake in what kind of adult they become. In the same way drug addicts are society's problem, or unemployed people are society's problem, or sociopathic second generation rich never-worked-a-day drunk drivers are society's problem. This isn't to say that you'll be conscripted in to a psudo-parent role against your will, but they are your responsibility as a member of socie…

In that case, I revoke my membership to society. I have my own problems.

Re: How to Raise a Creative Child – Step One: Back Off (2016)

#182

Post by jackvalentine »

lacampbell wrote: post #181
jackvalentine wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Kids are a part of society, and society has a stake in what kind of adult they become. In the same way drug addicts are society's problem, or unemployed people are society's problem, or sociopathic second generation rich never-worked-a-day drunk drivers are society's problem. This isn't to say that you'll be conscripted in to a psudo-parent role against your will, but they are your responsibility as a member of socie…

In that case, I revoke my membership to society. I have my own problems.

You can do so by moving out in to the middle of nowhere and becoming a self-sufficient hermit.

Anything less and sorry, but you're a part of society.

Re: How to Raise a Creative Child – Step One: Back Off (2016)

#183

Post by lacampbell »

jackvalentine wrote: post #182
lacampbell wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In that case, I revoke my membership to society. I have my own problems.

You can do so by moving out in to the middle of nowhere and becoming a self-sufficient hermit. Anything less and sorry, but you're a part of society.

who are you to tell an individual what responsibilities they have, and to try and make outcasts of people who don't want them?

I don't have to move anywhere to absolve myself of the responsibility to strangers.

Re: How to Raise a Creative Child – Step One: Back Off (2016)

#184

Post by _7fvc »

Over time, I see articles bouncing between discipline your children (aka tiger parenting) and let them free (aka nuture creativity.) There are passionate camps and black/white discussions. I think the most successful professionals need to have both. So it's best to work on both.

In the case where you can't have both. I think it's better to focus on discipline. At least you'd get something tiny done, not just wandering around.

Re: How to Raise a Creative Child – Step One: Back Off (2016)

#185

Post by jackvalentine »

lacampbell wrote: post #183
jackvalentine wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can do so by moving out in to the middle of nowhere and becoming a self-sufficient hermit. Anything less and sorry, but you're a part of society.

who are you to tell an individual what responsibilities they have, and to try and make outcasts of people who don't want them? I don't have to move anywhere to absolve myself of the responsibility to strangers.

I don't think that you quite understand the point I'm making?

By taking part in every day life, using civil infrastructure, having contact with other people you're a part of society with all that goes with that.

It logically follows that the only way to extricate yourself from the situation is to leave society and all the benefits it brings. There are people who have done that!

However I don't see how you can possibly do so and have the convenience of a doctor available when you're sick, coffee sold by the cup and roads on which for you to drive. These are physical and organisational manifestations of 'society'.

By remaining in proximity and contact of other humans you're their responsibility and they are yours.

It's fine to want out but that does need to come with a realisation of what benefits you draw from societal organisation and what you'll need to lose to withdraw from the uninvited, unwritten, yet tangible 'bargain' that society represents.

I'm trying to picture what remaining with other people yet rejecting 'society' theoretically looks like and I can only see it as a kind of parasitic relationship. When aware of parasites humans have a tendency to try and kill or remove them. After all, you would be rejecting all the protections legal and otherwise that society offers its members.

Re: How to Raise a Creative Child – Step One: Back Off (2016)

#186

Post by spyrosg »

houst0n_ wrote: post #102
shouldbworking wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem for me, and perhaps many others, is that the "smart" are sorted out early and carted out of regular classrooms. If you miss the boat it gets substantially more difficult, almost impossible, to get back on that track. I remember my parents trying to get me into advanced classes in sixth grade but the school rules said it needed to be done by third grade. I couldn't skip a year either, it was too late. The…

So it's their failure and not yours? I have a comparable story; dropped out of school at 15 and didn't touch education since (>15 years ago now), then spent a few years high and drunk: but I'd learnt perl from the camel even before then. What do you think you are owed? If i hadn't read k&r or learning perl by myself I should then blame my teachers who hadn't read them either? Most of the best folk I've worked with fo…

Your view would be fair if it was openly stated to the smart kids in their young age. Knowing that they're on their own, whatever they end up doing would be an informed choice and their responsibility entirely.

This isn't what happens in reality though. Schools and teachers demand submission to their authority on the implied promise that they are going to take care of you. When children believe that, and then are let down, is it the children's fault?

Gifted kids have high IQ, but probably not high EQ. They're defenceless against bullshit and blind to multi-level messages at that age, like most other kids.

Personally I don't blame the school system. What it does is not fair, but fairness is a fairy tale. It is a tool of society, with a useful purpose, and some unfortunate side-effects. The parents of a kid that's let down by the system should however take charge and start telling him how things really work, and make the kid realise that it's just him now.

Re: How to Raise a Creative Child – Step One: Back Off (2016)

#187

Post by greggman »

xherberta wrote: post #30
pcarolan wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good point about Feynman. The only thing I've found to work is trying everything until something starts to work. Of course, you start with the books to get ideas for what to try next. Ive got one of those kids that bounces off the walls. The older I get though the less I care. Some kids just can't sit still. Kids are society's problem and when we don't build spaces for them to be kids, its gonna happen.

> Kids are society's problem Respectfully, I'm sad for children whose parents think society is going to look out for them. Every kid deserves a couple of people who take personal responsibility for their behavior and well-being. I have a pretty high tolerance for kids being bouncy and boisterous, but it's always nice to see parents giving the sort of information that helps them become considerate:("Look, that woman's…

The sugar = hyper kids myth has long been debunked.

Instead what studies have found is if the parents believe their kids ate sugar they'll believe their kids are hyper even when the kids were actually given a placebo.

https://www.google.com/?q=does+sugar+make+kids+hyper

Re: How to Raise a Creative Child – Step One: Back Off (2016)

#188

Post by lacampbell »

jackvalentine wrote: post #185
lacampbell wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

who are you to tell an individual what responsibilities they have, and to try and make outcasts of people who don't want them? I don't have to move anywhere to absolve myself of the responsibility to strangers.

I don't think that you quite understand the point I'm making? By taking part in every day life, using civil infrastructure, having contact with other people you're a part of society with all that goes with that. It logically follows that the only way to extricate yourself from the situation is to leave society and all the benefits it brings. There are people who have done that! However I don't see how you can possibl…

By remaining in proximity and contact of other humans you're their responsibility and they are yours.

I reject this completely. That's your reality, not mine.

Re: How to Raise a Creative Child – Step One: Back Off (2016)

#189

Post by 59nadir »

pcarolan wrote: post #35
xherberta wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Kids are society's problem Respectfully, I'm sad for children whose parents think society is going to look out for them. Every kid deserves a couple of people who take personal responsibility for their behavior and well-being. I have a pretty high tolerance for kids being bouncy and boisterous, but it's always nice to see parents giving the sort of information that helps them become considerate:("Look, that woman's…

I wasn't making the point that society was in charge of my kids, rather that society needs to be tolerant of kids nature and adapt to it to some degree. I can get my kid to sit still, but its not his natural state so I don't often do it. I am glad that there are places you can take your kid to join and indoctrinate them into cultures you want to identify with. I am glad there are options. I would not choose french ci…

I don't think other people should necessarily have to accept that you prefer not to keep your child reasonably quiet, as an example, in public. Understanding that kids will be kids doesn't mean understanding that you as a parent prefer not to teach your kid how to act in public.

It might seem harsh, but you really do paint the image of someone who thinks it's fine for his kid to keep screaming and running around in public, and having people just accept that that's how it is. I don't know how it is where you live, but neither in my home country or the country I live in now would this be considered fine for a parent to think. In my home country I think the general sentiment would be "At least have the decency to be ashamed of your performance as a parent" and a little bit less harsh where I am now.

You can think the above cultural sentiment is harsh, but it's a culture based on valuing the collective very highly and respecting it more than you value even yourself.

Re: How to Raise a Creative Child – Step One: Back Off (2016)

#190

Post by greggman »

I'd be really curious to hear from engineers that were made to play a musical instrument in childhood.

I know some people believe there's a correlation between good engineers and musical study (no idea if that's true, only that I've read it before)

I also know that I've rarely met a child that wants to practice their musical instrument. Usually they have to be made to do it "No TV, no internet, no video games until you've finished your piano practice!" "But Mom!!!!!"

I know lots of adults that are happy they can play a musical instrument or speak a second language (parents sent them to language school as a child) but I know of few children who would chose to do either of them.

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