Leaked email from United Airlines CEO blames passenger for violent removal • Hacker News Board

Re: Leaked email from United Airlines CEO blames passenger for violent removal

#131

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Apr 11, 2017, 3:52 PM UTC

cm2187 wrote: post #85

valuearb wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't work because it's crazy expensive to build tracks, and not cost effective unless you have massive density. Airlines are better, not just because planes are faster, but because of flexibility. You can find a space somewhere and build a new airport, or add a new runway to an existing airport and use less than one thousandth the land the rail line will require. The planes you fly to one destination can sudden…

It's not just about the comfort of seating in a train. It's about not having to queue for 1h at security, being abused by TLA officers, queue again, getting checked, queue again, getting checked, etc. Flying today feels like going to jail.

[deleted]

Re: Leaked email from United Airlines CEO blames passenger for violent removal

#132

Post by AlexCoventry » Tue, Apr 11, 2017, 3:52 PM UTC

valuearb wrote: post #45

creaghpatr wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They should do a live auction on the plane, "I need 4 people to get off for $100...$200..." The competitiveness to "win" would save airlines money, make the "winners" feel even better about getting booted, and the "losers" don't actually lose anything. Probably more efficient too.

They got up to $800 and had no takers. Not sure why they didn't go higher, wondering if United doesn't allow employees to offer more compensation than that. Which is a problem if so.

$800 in highly constrained flight vouchers. If it had been cash, it would have been a different story.

Re: Leaked email from United Airlines CEO blames passenger for violent removal

#133

Post by bertil » Tue, Apr 11, 2017, 3:52 PM UTC

mavelikara wrote: post #82

cube00 wrote: post #4

If they had just increased the compensation passengers would have voluntarily given up their seat, everyone has their price. It didn't even need to be money, free flights, upgrades, it costs them next to nothing, especially when you consider this is still running in the media days later. Everyone hates to hear they overbook flights so you'd think when they get bitten United would take some of the savings made overboo…

I believe this is capped at a maximum of $1300. From [1]: If it’s more than two hours (four hours for international flights), or if the airline does not offer alternate flights, the compensation is 400 percent of your one-way fare, with a $1300 maximum. [1] http://www.cntraveler.com/stories/2014-09-04/bumped-due-to-o...

It’s not capped, as in the company is not allowed to offer more. The company is welcome to compensate more if they think this will help the situation. If the passengers who have been selected object, they can claim that much before boarding. Whether vouchers count is very much an open debate, as airlines tend to price useless vouchers at random prices. I’m not familiar with any rules allowing to disembark a passenger after the plane has been declared fully boarded other than security.

Re: Leaked email from United Airlines CEO blames passenger for violent removal

#134

Post by shas3 » Tue, Apr 11, 2017, 3:52 PM UTC

cafard wrote: post #91

cortesoft wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is the alternative to commercial airlines for someone who isn't crazy rich?

Unfortunately, it seems to be bus or car, and I don't think that Greyhound is what it was 40 years ago.

Greyhound is super sketchy. Service is terrible. About 10 yrs ago, I made the near-mistake of taking a Greyhound to a different city to catch a cheap international flight. I was going from a remote city to a big one. Luckily I had given myself a buffer of 8-12 hours. The bus was initially a couple of hours late for a 5 hour trip. Then, at a transit point we had to change buses and we were told that ticket doesn't guarantee seat and it's first come first serve! And there's only one bus per day from the less remote connecting city! I was lucky to get into the bus that day and not missing what turned out to be a memorable vacation. I only rode Greyhound one other time. Other observations: Greyhound stations are super sketchy in many cities. Buses are sometimes poorly maintained. Tickets are pricey. Etc.

Re: Leaked email from United Airlines CEO blames passenger for violent removal

#135

Post by maxerickson » Tue, Apr 11, 2017, 3:52 PM UTC

maxerickson wrote: post #22

libc wrote: post #6

The fact that the airline technically didn't do anything illegal here really speaks to the lack of consumer protection laws in this country.

So it was stupid business not to offer more money for other people to leave the plane (or to find some other way to move the crew), there's nothing to argue about there. What did they do that should be illegal? Overselling each flight makes the tickets cheaper. People want cheaper tickets. So it isn't obvious to me that over selling is wrong. Is the problem that they failed to stop the people boarding before deciding…

Everyone should note that they called law enforcement and law enforcement used physical force on the passenger.

Should the airlines be prevented from ever contacting law enforcement? Is law enforcement not responsible for their own actions after the airline asks them to do something?

Re: Leaked email from United Airlines CEO blames passenger for violent removal

#136

Post by wedowhatwedo » Tue, Apr 11, 2017, 3:52 PM UTC

valuearb wrote: post #31

tsunamifury wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with your logic is giving private companies complete rights over your physical person once you enter their plane will (and does as shown by the incident) lead to abuse for profit. There was no security issue, there was no emergency, there was no legitimate reason to remove this person from the plane. The abuse and physical harm of a passenger was done entirely in the name of saving a few dollars by not se…

The plane couldn't leave until this person left. So there was a plane full of people who couldn't leave because of this jerk. And he wasn't abused. He was told to leave multiple times by airline crew as well as security. He refused every time and forced security to drag him out. Whereupon he accidentally hit his face on an arm rest. It's not abuse for profit. We all benefit from cheaper refundable fares from the over…

They should have just shot the jerk. After all, we ALL benefit. Who cares about the rights and the blood shed of one person. We ALL benefit. The airline had NO OTHER CHOICE in the matter. They couldn't have offered more compensation to give up seats. I'll bet $800 cash would have done the trick. Everyone knows $800 flight coupons are pretty worthless. They couldn't have put their employees on other flights. Nope, there weren't any other options other than forcibly removing this one passenger so that we ALL benefit. A little bloodshed is nothing in the world of commerce.

Re: Leaked email from United Airlines CEO blames passenger for violent removal

#137

Post by tyingq » Tue, Apr 11, 2017, 3:53 PM UTC

MandieD wrote: post #33

tyingq wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Jimmy Kimmel pointed out the main reason why they get away with this. “The next time we book a flight, it doesn’t matter if it’s United or Delta or American, if one of those flights is a dollar less than the other one, that’s the one we’ll pick. They know this. That’s why we’re stuck with them.” I don't understand the dynamics of how it ended up this way. Air travel used to be a luxury, and had fairly high margins. T…

One word: deregulation. It's been a very sharp double-edged sword: on the one hand, it gave us effective competitors like Southwest and jetBlue forcing the "legacy" carriers to compete on price and routes, enabling far more people to be able to fly. On the other, it caused the legacy carriers compete on price, not service (the only thing they could really compete on before deregulation). Personally, I fly Southwest a…

There's more than just deregulation. Post 9/11, the airlines made changes to deal with the temporary (~3 year) lull in demand. They didn't pull those changes back after demand came back in spades. These were things like tighter seat pitch, higher average load factors, bag fees, bigger change fees, shifting capacity to higher margin international flights, etc.

I'm sure there are more factors as well. Flying is just a chore these days. And there's not much granularity of choice. There's 'cattle class', and the jump in price to something better (business, first) is huge...and does little for large parts of the bad experience. Compare to say, hotels, where there are many tiers of quality you can choose from.

Re: Leaked email from United Airlines CEO blames passenger for violent removal

#138

Post by scurvy » Tue, Apr 11, 2017, 3:53 PM UTC

cm2187 wrote: post #69

valuearb wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They got up to $800 and had no takers. Not sure why they didn't go higher, wondering if United doesn't allow employees to offer more compensation than that. Which is a problem if so.

If there is a lawsuit, I bet the settlement will be several order of magnitudes that. Particularly given that the guy was a physician.

I doubt that United would be party to the lawsuit. It would be the airport cops who were called and roughed up the passenger.

Re: Leaked email from United Airlines CEO blames passenger for violent removal

#139

Post by teej » Tue, Apr 11, 2017, 3:53 PM UTC

tyingq wrote: post #43

cortesoft wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is the alternative to commercial airlines for someone who isn't crazy rich?

High speed rail would kill off a lot of shorter routes, but it just doesn't work in the US for some reason. When I was in the UK, I took the Virgin Rail from London to Manchester. The additional room and ability to walk around made it so much better than a flight. I would have paid more. The time difference was negligible once you count all the extra screening time for airports.

High speed passenger rail doesn't work in the US because freight is prioritized over moving people. That's the short version at least. I found this video to be a pretty good walkthrough - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mbEfzuCLoAQ

Re: Leaked email from United Airlines CEO blames passenger for violent removal

#140

Post by valuearb » Tue, Apr 11, 2017, 3:53 PM UTC

lightbyte wrote: post #47

valuearb wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Airlines overbook because people don't show up for flights. Overbooking means airlines can offer passengers refundable tickets. Occasionally they get it wrong and have too many people show up. So they offer compensation to get people to voluntarily give up seats. If they can't get people to voluntarily give up seats they have the right to pick who to deny service to (but by law have to pay specific compensation to).…

>Airlines overbook because people don't show up for flights. That's false. They overbook because it makes them more money and for some reason people just accept it. Pretty much no other industry could get away with doing that to its customers. Imagine the shit storm that would have unveiled if some random movie theatre sold 110% of its seats for the midnight premier of Star Wars VII and subsequently physically remove…

That's false. A ton of airline business is refundable business travelers. Your meeting goes late? Take the next flight.

Airlines are catering to their customers, if one didn't offer refundable their competitors would.

If one offered refundable but didn't overbook, 10% of their passengers wouldn't show up for every flight. They'd get killed by competitors who did overbook and could offer cheaper fares because that 10% is nearly pure profit.

And though they've actually made big profits the last couple years, historically airlines are one of the least profitable businesses, possibly even posting net negative profits over the entire industry lifetime. They require massive capital costs to buy expensive airplanes, and alternate profitable and unprofitable years. Warren Buffett said if he had been at Kittyhawk he would have done capitalism a favor and shot the Wright Brothers down.