Leaked email from United Airlines CEO blames passenger for violent removal • Hacker News Board

Re: Leaked email from United Airlines CEO blames passenger for violent removal

#41

Post by wedowhatwedo » Tue, Apr 11, 2017, 3:32 PM UTC

valuearb wrote: post #24

libc wrote: post #6

The fact that the airline technically didn't do anything illegal here really speaks to the lack of consumer protection laws in this country.

Airlines overbook because people don't show up for flights. Overbooking means airlines can offer passengers refundable tickets. Occasionally they get it wrong and have too many people show up. So they offer compensation to get people to voluntarily give up seats. If they can't get people to voluntarily give up seats they have the right to pick who to deny service to (but by law have to pay specific compensation to).…

One person who "decided he was too important to accept being bumped"? How about one person who expected the contract that he paid for in good faith to being fulfilled? Someone who made commitments to others based on that contract.

Why is it now that the consumer always has no rights? Don't want your private information sold when using the internet? Don't use the internet.

Don't want to be forcibly removed from a plane in which you followed all the rules for purchasing a ticket that was most likely non-refundable if you didn't show up, lost your rights for privacy by being searched to board the plane, stood in line to board the plane, was on time, boarded the plane to sit in an uncomfortable seat, maybe had to pay extra to store your luggage, then get beat up when you were told they weren't going to honor the contract?

What is this country becoming?

Re: Leaked email from United Airlines CEO blames passenger for violent removal

#42

Post by Karunamon » Tue, Apr 11, 2017, 3:32 PM UTC

valuearb wrote: post #24

libc wrote: post #6

The fact that the airline technically didn't do anything illegal here really speaks to the lack of consumer protection laws in this country.

Airlines overbook because people don't show up for flights. Overbooking means airlines can offer passengers refundable tickets. Occasionally they get it wrong and have too many people show up. So they offer compensation to get people to voluntarily give up seats. If they can't get people to voluntarily give up seats they have the right to pick who to deny service to (but by law have to pay specific compensation to).…

Another way of looking at this would be to point out that internet service and air travel are the only two industries where it is legally allowed to sell people something you know in advance you can't provide.

In a sane world, overbooking would be at best illegal, the airline would realize the savings from the flight they were paid for but didn't actually have to carry the 200 pounds of passenger + luggage.

(That's about $90 worth of fuel on top of the average $350 price for a plane ticket)

At worst, overbooked tickets would be required to be disclosed as such at the time of purchase.

Re: Leaked email from United Airlines CEO blames passenger for violent removal

#43

Post by tyingq » Tue, Apr 11, 2017, 3:33 PM UTC

cortesoft wrote: post #38

dingaling wrote: post #5

This e-mail illustrates the complete imbalance of the "contract" of carriage between passenger and airline, which is compounded by the Federal Aviation Regulations that give the crew ultimate power even when there's no safety risk[0]. The CEO states that the flight was 'fully boarded' and then later that it was decided to 'deny boarding' to four passengers. So was it fully boarded or not? It doesn't really matter, th…

What is the alternative to commercial airlines for someone who isn't crazy rich?

High speed rail would kill off a lot of shorter routes, but it just doesn't work in the US for some reason.

When I was in the UK, I took the Virgin Rail from London to Manchester. The additional room and ability to walk around made it so much better than a flight. I would have paid more. The time difference was negligible once you count all the extra screening time for airports.

Re: Leaked email from United Airlines CEO blames passenger for violent removal

#44

Post by scosman » Tue, Apr 11, 2017, 3:33 PM UTC

cube00 wrote: post #4

If they had just increased the compensation passengers would have voluntarily given up their seat, everyone has their price. It didn't even need to be money, free flights, upgrades, it costs them next to nothing, especially when you consider this is still running in the media days later. Everyone hates to hear they overbook flights so you'd think when they get bitten United would take some of the savings made overboo…

Exactly! United overbooked as an optimization for profits, fine. However, they should have to pay up when it backfires. They gave up at $800 and just started forcing people off. If it's free market when I'm buying my ticket, it should be free market for United buying it back.

Re: Leaked email from United Airlines CEO blames passenger for violent removal

#45

Post by valuearb » Tue, Apr 11, 2017, 3:33 PM UTC

creaghpatr wrote: post #34

cube00 wrote: post #4

If they had just increased the compensation passengers would have voluntarily given up their seat, everyone has their price. It didn't even need to be money, free flights, upgrades, it costs them next to nothing, especially when you consider this is still running in the media days later. Everyone hates to hear they overbook flights so you'd think when they get bitten United would take some of the savings made overboo…

They should do a live auction on the plane, "I need 4 people to get off for $100...$200..." The competitiveness to "win" would save airlines money, make the "winners" feel even better about getting booted, and the "losers" don't actually lose anything. Probably more efficient too.

They got up to $800 and had no takers. Not sure why they didn't go higher, wondering if United doesn't allow employees to offer more compensation than that. Which is a problem if so.

Re: Leaked email from United Airlines CEO blames passenger for violent removal

#46

Post by Natsu » Tue, Apr 11, 2017, 3:33 PM UTC

M_Grey wrote: post #26

tsunamifury wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with your logic is giving private companies complete rights over your physical person once you enter their plane will (and does as shown by the incident) lead to abuse for profit. There was no security issue, there was no emergency, there was no legitimate reason to remove this person from the plane. The abuse and physical harm of a passenger was done entirely in the name of saving a few dollars by not se…

That entire way of policing has been normalized and legalized over the decades now. For example, originally "Less Lethal" options were intended to be used in a situation an officer would otherwise have to use their firearm. Now, they're just used as compliance "come-alongs"; these kinds of things start in our prisons and then come to our streets. Now you have police tasering streakers just to stop them, or swabbing s…

Well, the only response police have to non-compliance has always been violence. It's always been against the law not to comply with their orders. And it seems obvious that they will choose the sort that's less risky to the officer (taser, pepper spray), because each and every one of them knows the stories of the officers who got hurt.

So yeah, if the police tell you to do something, you should expect to do it. It's neither the place nor the time for a debate and if you think they're wrong, you need to argue that in court. And that will be a lot easier if you don't resist arrest in the first place.

Re: Leaked email from United Airlines CEO blames passenger for violent removal

#47

Post by lightbyte » Tue, Apr 11, 2017, 3:34 PM UTC

valuearb wrote: post #24

libc wrote: post #6

The fact that the airline technically didn't do anything illegal here really speaks to the lack of consumer protection laws in this country.

Airlines overbook because people don't show up for flights. Overbooking means airlines can offer passengers refundable tickets. Occasionally they get it wrong and have too many people show up. So they offer compensation to get people to voluntarily give up seats. If they can't get people to voluntarily give up seats they have the right to pick who to deny service to (but by law have to pay specific compensation to).…

>Airlines overbook because people don't show up for flights.

That's false. They overbook because it makes them more money and for some reason people just accept it. Pretty much no other industry could get away with doing that to its customers.

Imagine the shit storm that would have unveiled if some random movie theatre sold 110% of its seats for the midnight premier of Star Wars VII and subsequently physically removed people from their seats because their employees also wanted to see the movie and they sold too many tickets.

Re: Leaked email from United Airlines CEO blames passenger for violent removal

#48

Post by cm2187 » Tue, Apr 11, 2017, 3:34 PM UTC

Overbooking is an indefensible practice. You sell a service that you knowingly have no intention to provide to people who base their travel plans on that expectation. This is like playing Russian roulette with your customers. No sympathy for United.

Re: Leaked email from United Airlines CEO blames passenger for violent removal

#49

Post by antisthenes » Tue, Apr 11, 2017, 3:34 PM UTC

tyingq wrote: post #25

hedora wrote: post #15

Ignoring the physical assault, this sounds about par for United customer support... I've been avoiding United for years, but a few years ago, a few friends wanted to be picked up at the airport after United flights. Over 50% of them bought tickets for flights that didn't exist, and were instead consolidated onto other, later, flights. Airlines should have to pay large multiples of ticket prices (in cash) to passenger…

Jimmy Kimmel pointed out the main reason why they get away with this. “The next time we book a flight, it doesn’t matter if it’s United or Delta or American, if one of those flights is a dollar less than the other one, that’s the one we’ll pick. They know this. That’s why we’re stuck with them.” I don't understand the dynamics of how it ended up this way. Air travel used to be a luxury, and had fairly high margins. T…

Isn't that what most of HN is so frantically behind? Free markets at work, deregulated to the point of making little to no economic profit, no consumer protections, and what you call a "race to the bottom" is actually what occurs under perfectly competitive markets.

Thinking you can have the good parts of competition without the bad parts and being surprised when something happens according to basic economic theory is economic doublethink at its finest.

PS: I'm all for cheap flights. It has allowed the working class (and myself) to travel and see the world and not go broke doing it. Hard to imagine but people outside of the IT bubble have to budget for vacations and having cheap flights helps a ton. Ultimately, incidents like these are so rare compared to the passenger volume that it makes no sense for a regular person to worry about it happening to them.

Re: Leaked email from United Airlines CEO blames passenger for violent removal

#50

Post by goatherders » Tue, Apr 11, 2017, 3:34 PM UTC

I love how they say he was advised that he was "denied boarding." Here's a tip: If I'm in a seat, you've already let me board. And if you planned poorly then that isn't my problem.

Unlike any other industry of which I am aware, airlines are unbelievably skilled at making their problems their customers problems and then not apologizing for it.