The Lasting Consequences of Student Debt • Hacker News Board

Re: The Lasting Consequences of Student Debt

#131

Post by kamaal » Tue, Apr 04, 2017, 4:40 PM UTC

r_smart wrote: post #39

TheAdamAndChe wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Assuming that 18 year olds should be capable of calculating cost-benefit analyses and execute long-term planning en masse is entirely too optimistic. Our schooling is way too bad to expect that, and our brains aren't even fully developed until the age of 25. The fact that so many young people feel the need to go to college to get a career in the first place is a sign that our economy is highly imbalanced right now. P…

One of my favorite things to knock on about is how we live in a capitalist society but our compulsory education doesn't ever address basic finance & economics. Most of these kids have no idea what interest is or what their post graduation payments are going to be like unless they've had the fortune of a knowledgeable parent or teacher taking the time to explain things. It's kind of shameful to me that I was 30 years…

>>One of my favorite things to knock on about is how we live in a capitalist society but our compulsory education doesn't ever address basic finance & economics.

That is largely high school math + common sense.

They actually do teach a lot of life skills at school. One just needs to pay attention.

The true reason why people take personal finance later in life is because they burn their hands, and learn the lessons the hard way through some failure.

Re: The Lasting Consequences of Student Debt

#132

Post by xname2 » Tue, Apr 04, 2017, 4:41 PM UTC

epalmer wrote: post #120

ryandrake wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The thing that irks me about this the most is how it's the people who were doing exactly what they were told that got hurt the most. The good kids who went to the best school they could get in to, studied whatever they were interested in, and if that thing happened to be literature or women's studies or a wide number of other things you might just spend the next 20 years figuring out how to live with debt you can't…

This makes me sad and mad. I work at a small liberal arts university in IT and they are still telling the students to take whatever Arts and Sciences major. The school I work at does limit student debt and is a needs based school (they provide a lot of debt free aid in the form of grants), so that is good. But still majoring in the classics or art (especially from a school not known for art), art history and art mana…

It is not just stupid. It is politically motivated. The idea that people should be responsible for individual decision making is somehow contradict with today's teaching in humanities and liberal arts. It is no coincidence that almost all of those professors are far left and they advocate students should just major in whatever they like, and at the same time they hate business school, and at the same time them agree with free college to everyone, etc.

Re: The Lasting Consequences of Student Debt

#133

Post by stinkytaco » Tue, Apr 04, 2017, 4:41 PM UTC

RUG3Y wrote: post #126

This is a bit tangential to the conversation, but relevant: I have an art degree. I was pushed into getting any degree. I'm a part of that same generation that was told to go to college at all costs, even if you don't know what you want to do with yourself. Fast forward 11 years, and I've just finally paid my student loans off. Now I'm in this situation: I'm not doing a whole lot with art, and I'm trying to break int…

Freelance? Start contributing to OS projects and consult? I mean, if you're trying to break in without existing credentials or work product, I would have to think you'd need to create some work product and connections.

Re: The Lasting Consequences of Student Debt

#134

Post by giardini » Tue, Apr 04, 2017, 4:44 PM UTC

giardini wrote: post #106

Taleb's 2012 book "Antifragility" discusses the state of university education and student loans: "Harvard is like a Vuitton bag or a Cartier watch. It is a huge drag on the middle-class parents who have been plowing an increased share of their savings into these institutions, transferring their money to administrators, real estate developers, professors, and other agents. In the United States, we have a buildup of st…

Hey, why the downvote?

Re: The Lasting Consequences of Student Debt

#135

Post by akeck » Tue, Apr 04, 2017, 4:44 PM UTC

I started at a "small liberal arts school," but had to leave early. I then started an IT career while living at home and somehow had the good sense to pay off the loans from my aborted college career. Then degree requirements started to kick in on IT positions, so I went to night school to finish my B.S. Because I could only handle one class per semester on top of full time IT work, my degree inadvertently ended up being pay-as-you-go. I graduated a bit exhausted, but debt free. Younger friends who did their four year degrees in the same time frame essentially pay an extra rent payment each month. It's crushing them.

Re: The Lasting Consequences of Student Debt

#136

Post by epalmer » Tue, Apr 04, 2017, 4:45 PM UTC

agalarza wrote: post #93

austenallred wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I graduated high school in 2008 and dropped out of college a few years later. I can honestly say not one person (other than my parents) ever recommended considering cost until after my Freshman year of college. The message that was pounded in again and again and again was "The best college at all costs." I'm pretty sure that's no longer the case - at least I hope so.

Sorry if this is too personal, but did you think your parents were blowing hot air or something? This thread has been eye-opening from the perspective of all these comments who (apparently) had negligible guidance from a group of people (parents) who absolutely need to talk about debt to their kids. Maybe a silver lining in this topic is a generation of future parents who will have better conversations with their kid…

My youngest is going to Olin college of engineering next fall and we talk about debt a lot. We had a conversation last night about debt. We are blessed that Olin is a needs based school that provides grants (debt free) for families that can't fully afford college. They want their students to have a little debt (skin in the game) but we are talking a little not a lot.

We talk about personal finance, net worth, investing, saving for retirement and many related topics. I am an engineer by training and a computer scientist by career. My wife has done a lot of accounting most of her life.

Also right now the career prospects in engineering are good.

I work at a university so I see the downside often of student debt and bad major choices.

Re: The Lasting Consequences of Student Debt

#137

Post by Frondo » Tue, Apr 04, 2017, 4:46 PM UTC

crusso wrote: post #47

SketchySeaBeast wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I made that mistake as well. Did what people were telling me to do and it got me nowhere. Got a useless university degree in something I liked because I thought having a degree would help, and was told by everyone that I was too "gifted" not to get one. Found out it just makes you super pretentious at retail jobs while you struggle to pay off the debt. I managed to pay that debt off, and 5 years ago I figured out wha…

Did what people were telling me to do and it got me nowhere There will always be people who give you bad advice. I know it's cliche to beat up on the "everyone gets a trophy" mentality that has grown in dominance, but maybe this is a legitimate beef against it. If kids grow up thinking that there are no winners and losers, how do they learn to discriminate when it comes to important matters like college, degree, and…

Thing is, of all my peers, all of us share that same experience.

I think it's great that some folks here either didn't receive that bad advice or ignored it, but the reality is, lots of people have gotten screwed with a lot of debt, by listening to their elders.

And I personally kinda hate that "everyone gets a trophy" mentality, because you know what? It was never us kids who were asking for trophies. It was always the adults coming up with that goofy shit and foisting it on us. And yet, somehow, my generation's the one accused of being a snowflake generation...

Re: The Lasting Consequences of Student Debt

#138

Post by alistairSH » Tue, Apr 04, 2017, 4:48 PM UTC

austenallred wrote: post #12

The thing that irks me about this the most is how it's the people who were doing exactly what they were told that got hurt the most. The good kids who went to the best school they could get in to, studied whatever they were interested in, and if that thing happened to be literature or women's studies or a wide number of other things you might just spend the next 20 years figuring out how to live with debt you can't p…

That wasn't my experience.

My parents flat-out told me I was going in-state or funding the difference myself (and with UVA, VT, and W&M available, that became a no-brainer).

And counselors, while not actively discouraging applications to expensive private/out-of-state schools, did actively encourage scholarship and grant applications.

Then, during college, my dad did repeatedly ask me my plans. And, when I decided I wanted to pursue a career in computer science, offered to pay an extra year of school so I could transfer to the engineering program (CS was part of the engineering school at UVA). I declined - at the time, the dot-com bubble had not burst, and if you could spell C++, you could find a job that paid $50k+ (in 1999 dollars) - and finished my degree in economics (minored in CS).

Re: The Lasting Consequences of Student Debt

#139

Post by stinkytaco » Tue, Apr 04, 2017, 4:48 PM UTC

ThrustVectoring wrote: post #118

College is a positional good, so "Is college worth it" is a question with two answers. Let me explain. The first question is "as an individual job-seeker, is college worth it to me personally ". Which it probably still is - there's very real discrimination against folks without a degree. The second question is "for job-seekers as a class , does college help them". Which it almost certainly isn't - there's a huge amou…

I like this idea, but I also routinely see criticism on HN of interviews that attempt to determine knowledge level (puzzle solving, programming tasks, and so on). And, of course, you start to wade into the problem of any exam, that it's too narrow, biased, and so on.

I think your point about job-seekers as a class is mostly right, but it doesn't bring into account one of the things college provides you, which is a well-rounded education. Now, this may or may not be worthwhile to you, but my experience is that college is a good shorthand to "will this person be a good coworker". There are plenty of things about that hoop jumping that have value in the working world. They are probably OK in teams, they are probably OK at administrative work, and so on. I had a friend who went to MIT that said "if someone graduated from MIT, at least I know they have good time management skills". This is absolutely not universally true, but a higher percentage of the college graduates I've worked with are good in teams than of non-college graduates I've worked with.

Re: The Lasting Consequences of Student Debt

#140

Post by gozur88 » Tue, Apr 04, 2017, 4:48 PM UTC

ep103 wrote: post #37

r_smart wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps one of the silver linings of growing up poor was that I, and my friends, were conscious of money, or its lack. I wanted to pursue a writing degree and knew I shouldn't spend a ton of money on it, so I stayed local and worked to mostly pay my way through my first degree. My friends went to fancier schools, but did it in pursuit of business degrees, looking to get a good return on their education. The point bei…

You make a good point. Yet the entire time I'm reading it, the main thought going through my mind, is people shouldn't have to make choices like this about education. And definitely not in a democracy.

What does the system of government have to do with it?