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The Lasting Consequences of Student Debt

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Re: The Lasting Consequences of Student Debt

#101

Post by pc86 »

Retric wrote: post #25
TheAdamAndChe wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> a market failure or market inefficiency caused by an politically induced scarcity of housing through zoning density restrictions. This is true, but it's also a failure of policies that have led to the majority of job growth being in the biggest cities in the country. If we could spread things out a bit and keep smaller cities a viable place to create jobs, the bigger cities wouldn't be impacted nearly as hard.

I think it has less to do with viable job creation than wider political issues. It's cheap to open an office in Iowa, but talent/upper middle class people don't want to move there. Not simply because of social issues, but because companies don't pay enough. IE if I can save 20% of 150k moving to a cheap location is only viable if I can save 30k not just 20% of a lower salary.

$100k in Iowa will go a lot farther than $200k in San Francisco, and if you can get $200k in SF you can almost certainly get a similar job making $100k (or more) in rural Iowa.

Now, if you don't want to do that because "gross, it's Iowa" and NYC or SF is objectively a more enjoyable environment for a 20-something single software developer, that's fine. But that's a choice and at that point you're simply deciding to live in a more expensive location because it's more fun.

Source: I live in rural Pennsylvania, and used to work for a company in rural Iowa (remotely).

Re: The Lasting Consequences of Student Debt

#102

Post by randomdata »

r_smart wrote: post #39
TheAdamAndChe wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Assuming that 18 year olds should be capable of calculating cost-benefit analyses and execute long-term planning en masse is entirely too optimistic. Our schooling is way too bad to expect that, and our brains aren't even fully developed until the age of 25. The fact that so many young people feel the need to go to college to get a career in the first place is a sign that our economy is highly imbalanced right now. P…

One of my favorite things to knock on about is how we live in a capitalist society but our compulsory education doesn't ever address basic finance & economics. Most of these kids have no idea what interest is or what their post graduation payments are going to be like unless they've had the fortune of a knowledgeable parent or teacher taking the time to explain things. It's kind of shameful to me that I was 30 years…

What is interesting is that, for many people, it doesn't really become a capitalistic society until they turn 18. That compulsory formal education you mention, and the social norms surrounding it, often shields the youth from the real world, taking the lessons the real world can provide them away until much later in life, as you experienced.

It seems like at this point at lot of the education we feel is necessary exists simply, and perhaps ironically, to make up for the lack of that exposure one has to reality because of the heavy focus on formal education through one's formative years. I would even suggest that we've created a situation where the more formal education one receives, even more formal education is required to make up for what what education was lost in the process.

Re: The Lasting Consequences of Student Debt

#103

Post by paulddraper »

ryandrake wrote: post #69
austenallred wrote: post #12

The thing that irks me about this the most is how it's the people who were doing exactly what they were told that got hurt the most. The good kids who went to the best school they could get in to, studied whatever they were interested in, and if that thing happened to be literature or women's studies or a wide number of other things you might just spend the next 20 years figuring out how to live with debt you can't p…

> The thing that irks me about this the most is how it's the people who were doing exactly what they were told that got hurt the most. The good kids who went to the best school they could get in to, studied whatever they were interested in, and if that thing happened to be literature or women's studies or a wide number of other things you might just spend the next 20 years figuring out how to live with debt you can't…

Having graduated high school in 2008, I don't quite understand it either.

My school counselors were always saying "School is expensive; you need to apply for scholarships!"

And then there was career day, when you quickly figured out some of the realities of work.

Plus the STEM folks always said things like "The US needs more engineers!", "Math + science is important!".

Perhaps because I lived on Florida's Space Coast (east central Florida, the general vicinity of NASA) my experience was different than most?

Re: The Lasting Consequences of Student Debt

#104

Post by maxxxxx »

jMyles wrote: post #14
austenallred wrote: post #12

The thing that irks me about this the most is how it's the people who were doing exactly what they were told that got hurt the most. The good kids who went to the best school they could get in to, studied whatever they were interested in, and if that thing happened to be literature or women's studies or a wide number of other things you might just spend the next 20 years figuring out how to live with debt you can't p…

I'm part of that generation and made that mistake for sure. > The thing that irks me about this the most is how it's the people who were doing exactly what they were told that got hurt the most. The takeaway here is, in part: don't do something just because you're told to. If our generation stops doing what we're told (which seems to be the case), then this will be a small price.

How is someone 18 years old supposed to figure out what to do? At that age I had no idea how the workplace works or how to get a career, don't event talk about a career I like. Some people have parents with insight or they just have luck but without guidance what do you do?

Re: The Lasting Consequences of Student Debt

#105

Post by r_smart »

ep103 wrote: post #37
r_smart wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps one of the silver linings of growing up poor was that I, and my friends, were conscious of money, or its lack. I wanted to pursue a writing degree and knew I shouldn't spend a ton of money on it, so I stayed local and worked to mostly pay my way through my first degree. My friends went to fancier schools, but did it in pursuit of business degrees, looking to get a good return on their education. The point bei…

You make a good point. Yet the entire time I'm reading it, the main thought going through my mind, is people shouldn't have to make choices like this about education. And definitely not in a democracy.

|people shouldn't have to make choices like this about education. And definitely not in a democracy.

With all due respect, that doesn't really make any sense. What about a democracy should keep people from making important decisions?

I think our education of students on the matter needs work, but they should absolutely be making this decision. For a lot of people it's the first really big decision they get to make, and is a good step to taking on the responsibility that comes with adulthood. That coupled with (hopefully) having a part time job through high school puts them in a pretty good position to transition into becoming a responsible citizen. We just need to teach them more about the costs, expected returns, etc. None of it is that complicated, and could be reasonably taught in a high school algebra course. Probably sooner to be honest.

Re: The Lasting Consequences of Student Debt

#106

Post by giardini »

Taleb's 2012 book "Antifragility" discusses the state of university education and student loans:

"Harvard is like a Vuitton bag or a Cartier watch. It is a huge drag on the middle-class parents who have been plowing an increased share of their savings into these institutions, transferring their money to administrators, real estate developers, professors, and other agents. In the United States, we have a buildup of student loans that automatically transfer to these rent extractors, In a way it is no different from racketeering..."

On the future of education:

"My answer: BS is fragile. Which scam in history has lasted forever? I have an enormous faith in Time and History as eventual debunkers of fragility. Education is an institution that has been growing without external stressors; eventually the thing will collapse."

- "Antifragile", Chapter 17 (last 2 pages)

- Nassim Nicholas Taleb

Re: The Lasting Consequences of Student Debt

#107

Post by ryandrake »

paulddraper wrote: post #103
ryandrake wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The thing that irks me about this the most is how it's the people who were doing exactly what they were told that got hurt the most. The good kids who went to the best school they could get in to, studied whatever they were interested in, and if that thing happened to be literature or women's studies or a wide number of other things you might just spend the next 20 years figuring out how to live with debt you can't…

Having graduated high school in 2008, I don't quite understand it either. My school counselors were always saying "School is expensive; you need to apply for scholarships!" And then there was career day, when you quickly figured out some of the realities of work. Plus the STEM folks always said things like "The US needs more engineers!", "Math + science is important!". Perhaps because I lived on Florida's Space Coast…

I grew up in a shithole slate-mining town of less than 5000 people. Most of the people there couldn't even spell STEM. High school guidance counsellor was still extremely clear. "Do go to college, but for the love of god, major in Medicine, Science, or Engineering. Don't waste your time and money with anything else."

Re: The Lasting Consequences of Student Debt

#108

Post by jasode »

austenallred wrote: post #12

The thing that irks me about this the most is how it's the people who were doing exactly what they were told that got hurt the most. The good kids who went to the best school they could get in to, studied whatever they were interested in, and if that thing happened to be literature or women's studies or a wide number of other things you might just spend the next 20 years figuring out how to live with debt you can't p…

>, studied whatever they were interested in, and if that thing happened to be literature or women's studies

As some sibling comments noted, this lackadaisical attitude of ignoring the ROI wasn't really true even 50 years ago.

The meme "underwater basket weaving" as a synonym for "unmarketable degree" has been around since the 1960s.[1] Undoubtedly, the GenX, GenY, & Millenials going to college in 1990s & 2000s would have heard of it or similar memes. I believe I first heard of it from a monologue by comedian Jay Leno. (The "uwb" was originally a meme about a specific class but its meaning expanded to entire unmarketable degrees -- which is how mainstream press like NYT used it.[2])

It doesn't mean that "literature" or "women's studies" are unworthy academic subjects. If you're a trust fund baby, you can study whatever you want with no financial repercussions. (The whole philosophy about the pure joy of learning for learning's sake, etc.) However, if one takes out $30k+ in debt, the banks and USA government won't forgive your loan just because you got a degree with no market demand. Therefore, the job prospects of "B.A. in Communications" vs "B.A. in Accounting" has to affect the decision.

[1] https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=underwater+bas...

[2] http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/23/arts/television/and-there-...

Re: The Lasting Consequences of Student Debt

#109

Post by mercer »

ryandrake wrote: post #69
austenallred wrote: post #12

The thing that irks me about this the most is how it's the people who were doing exactly what they were told that got hurt the most. The good kids who went to the best school they could get in to, studied whatever they were interested in, and if that thing happened to be literature or women's studies or a wide number of other things you might just spend the next 20 years figuring out how to live with debt you can't p…

> The thing that irks me about this the most is how it's the people who were doing exactly what they were told that got hurt the most. The good kids who went to the best school they could get in to, studied whatever they were interested in, and if that thing happened to be literature or women's studies or a wide number of other things you might just spend the next 20 years figuring out how to live with debt you can't…

> Are they REALLY telling kids nowadays to go major in whatever interested them?

Speaking for myself and the majority of people close to me (late twenties / early thirties, Dutch, mostly middle-class), that's exactly what we were told. Maybe around one in ten people I know went for STEM taking into account 'worth the cost', but it's hard to tell because most of them were pressured by their STEM-parents, so the reasons could've been different ("everything else is pseudo-science", etc.)

People I know slightly older than me are even 'worse' in this regard and seem to have been raised with the 'keep studying as long as you like' and 'follow your passion above all else' model, which I was most definitely not raised with, so the perspective has been changing pretty rapidly.

looking at the friends of my progressively younger brothers, the advice is more as you say: college is still 'the thing to do - if you can', but there is much, much more emphasis on job prospects. Part of the reason for that might be that the Dutch system has become more expensive though.

Re: The Lasting Consequences of Student Debt

#110

Post by r_smart »

randomdata wrote: post #102
r_smart wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of my favorite things to knock on about is how we live in a capitalist society but our compulsory education doesn't ever address basic finance & economics. Most of these kids have no idea what interest is or what their post graduation payments are going to be like unless they've had the fortune of a knowledgeable parent or teacher taking the time to explain things. It's kind of shameful to me that I was 30 years…

What is interesting is that, for many people, it doesn't really become a capitalistic society until they turn 18. That compulsory formal education you mention, and the social norms surrounding it, often shields the youth from the real world, taking the lessons the real world can provide them away until much later in life, as you experienced. It seems like at this point at lot of the education we feel is necessary exi…

Interesting points. I think there's definitely something to be said for education curricula having lost the plot. It seems more and more to me that a lot of the first few years of college is really just teaching things you should have already learned in high school.

I also think we've drifted towards thinking that all education takes place in a school. Things like parental mentorship, working a job while in school, extracurricular reading or building things for fun are falling a bit by the wayside. Education is (or should be) a lot more than attending lectures in a classroom, even at the middle school and high school levels.

My GF is a school counselor, and one of her constant sources of frustration is how much stuff is getting pushed onto schools to do which really isn't in their provenance.

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