The Lasting Consequences of Student Debt • Hacker News Board

Re: The Lasting Consequences of Student Debt

#21

Post by John23832 » Tue, Apr 04, 2017, 2:23 PM UTC

icebraining wrote: post #15

John23832 wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. Most of the high earning young people I hang with basically have to be willing to uproot for opportunity. However, owning a house (I think the term home is something distinctly different) could be used to facilitate moves though. I don't have to be in the same state/country as my rental property (though countries are starting to crack down on foreign rental property ownership).

Is property management cheap in your area? We rent a couple of apartments, and hiring a property management company would be ruinous, unless both the rent and our personal time was very expensive.

I would pick a rental area which has a college (or colleges) or with a large rental market. In my experience, the presence of a student rental market keeps prices down for property management, but high enough to make rentals viable. However, each person's situation is different.

Re: The Lasting Consequences of Student Debt

#22

Post by rglover » Tue, Apr 04, 2017, 2:25 PM UTC

uiri wrote: post #17

austenallred wrote: post #12

The thing that irks me about this the most is how it's the people who were doing exactly what they were told that got hurt the most. The good kids who went to the best school they could get in to, studied whatever they were interested in, and if that thing happened to be literature or women's studies or a wide number of other things you might just spend the next 20 years figuring out how to live with debt you can't p…

How is "did exactly what they were told" different from "did not think for themselves" ? Any kind of large decision demands a cost-benefit analysis, including opportunity costs, time value of money, etc. The labour market does not change that much in 4-5 years (barring something like the 08-09 financial meltdown). It should be straightforward to check whether a degree is necessary in order to land a decent job - appl…

You're assuming a proper amount of intelligence/decisiveness at ~18 years old. I was a fucking airhead at 18 (11 years ago) and, like most kids, listened to my parents as I thought they knew best. They were not financially intelligent and as a result, put me on a precarious path with the best intentions of me having what they understood as a better future.

I also chose a path back then (working in television) that has nothing to do with what I ultimately developed an interest in (software design/dev) later into college (when changing majors would have racked up even more debt).

Re: The Lasting Consequences of Student Debt

#23

Post by TheAdamAndChe » Tue, Apr 04, 2017, 2:26 PM UTC

uiri wrote: post #17

austenallred wrote: post #12

The thing that irks me about this the most is how it's the people who were doing exactly what they were told that got hurt the most. The good kids who went to the best school they could get in to, studied whatever they were interested in, and if that thing happened to be literature or women's studies or a wide number of other things you might just spend the next 20 years figuring out how to live with debt you can't p…

How is "did exactly what they were told" different from "did not think for themselves" ? Any kind of large decision demands a cost-benefit analysis, including opportunity costs, time value of money, etc. The labour market does not change that much in 4-5 years (barring something like the 08-09 financial meltdown). It should be straightforward to check whether a degree is necessary in order to land a decent job - appl…

Assuming that 18 year olds should be capable of calculating cost-benefit analyses and execute long-term planning en masse is entirely too optimistic. Our schooling is way too bad to expect that, and our brains aren't even fully developed until the age of 25.

The fact that so many young people feel the need to go to college to get a career in the first place is a sign that our economy is highly imbalanced right now. People shouldn't need degrees to live a comfortable life, yet here we are, completely thrown off due to an extreme drop in demand for labor.

Re: The Lasting Consequences of Student Debt

#24

Post by rglover » Tue, Apr 04, 2017, 2:27 PM UTC

pitt1980 wrote: post #16

austenallred wrote: post #12

The thing that irks me about this the most is how it's the people who were doing exactly what they were told that got hurt the most. The good kids who went to the best school they could get in to, studied whatever they were interested in, and if that thing happened to be literature or women's studies or a wide number of other things you might just spend the next 20 years figuring out how to live with debt you can't p…

yeah, it was an expensive lesson in the downsides of uncritically accepting large scale social narratives

Which, conveniently, most children and young adults are not taught (unless their parents are intelligent).

Re: The Lasting Consequences of Student Debt

#25

Post by Retric » Tue, Apr 04, 2017, 2:28 PM UTC

TheAdamAndChe wrote: post #18

davidf18 wrote: post #13

A problem is that many of the higher paying jobs are in cities such as NYC, SF, LA, Boston, DC, (also London, ...) and the housing is expensive in these cities because of "rent-seeking" -- a market failure or market inefficiency caused by an politically induced scarcity of housing through zoning density restrictions. This harms renters and those starting out in life while benefiting wealthy landlords such as Presiden…

> a market failure or market inefficiency caused by an politically induced scarcity of housing through zoning density restrictions. This is true, but it's also a failure of policies that have led to the majority of job growth being in the biggest cities in the country. If we could spread things out a bit and keep smaller cities a viable place to create jobs, the bigger cities wouldn't be impacted nearly as hard.

I think it has less to do with viable job creation than wider political issues. It's cheap to open an office in Iowa, but talent/upper middle class people don't want to move there.

Not simply because of social issues, but because companies don't pay enough. IE if I can save 20% of 150k moving to a cheap location is only viable if I can save 30k not just 20% of a lower salary.

Re: The Lasting Consequences of Student Debt

#26

Post by rosbrith » Tue, Apr 04, 2017, 2:31 PM UTC

agalarza wrote: post #10

contingencies wrote: post #9

graduating from college makes you almost as likely to own a home, by age 36, as someone from a high-income family. I assume they mean "own" in the sense "get a mortgage on" not "have fully paid for", no?

I think they mean paying a mortgage too. Paying off a house by 36 seems to require either a ton of money or a very, very cheap home.

One still owns a home when buying with a mortgage. The lender places a charge on the property while a balance is outstanding, therefore in addition to owning the property you also own the debt secured against it.

Re: The Lasting Consequences of Student Debt

#27

Post by douche » Tue, Apr 04, 2017, 2:32 PM UTC

rglover wrote: post #22

uiri wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is "did exactly what they were told" different from "did not think for themselves" ? Any kind of large decision demands a cost-benefit analysis, including opportunity costs, time value of money, etc. The labour market does not change that much in 4-5 years (barring something like the 08-09 financial meltdown). It should be straightforward to check whether a degree is necessary in order to land a decent job - appl…

You're assuming a proper amount of intelligence/decisiveness at ~18 years old. I was a fucking airhead at 18 (11 years ago) and, like most kids, listened to my parents as I thought they knew best. They were not financially intelligent and as a result, put me on a precarious path with the best intentions of me having what they understood as a better future. I also chose a path back then (working in television) that ha…

It's sort of sad how much we have infantilized ourselves in this generation. We're almost to the point where somebody who is turning 30 is less mature and capable than someone 100 years ago was at sixteen.

Re: The Lasting Consequences of Student Debt

#28

Post by SketchySeaBeast » Tue, Apr 04, 2017, 2:32 PM UTC

austenallred wrote: post #12

The thing that irks me about this the most is how it's the people who were doing exactly what they were told that got hurt the most. The good kids who went to the best school they could get in to, studied whatever they were interested in, and if that thing happened to be literature or women's studies or a wide number of other things you might just spend the next 20 years figuring out how to live with debt you can't p…

I made that mistake as well. Did what people were telling me to do and it got me nowhere. Got a useless university degree in something I liked because I thought having a degree would help, and was told by everyone that I was too "gifted" not to get one. Found out it just makes you super pretentious at retail jobs while you struggle to pay off the debt.

I managed to pay that debt off, and 5 years ago I figured out what I should actually do, went back to school yet again, and again I've spent the last 3 years again paying off the exact average amount of student loan debt in a job that seems to pay about $100k less than what the valley pays.

Just payed off the last of my student debt in one big lump sum on Sunday. I was super aggressive paying off my loans and I'm so very thankful they are done. Now in my mid 30's, used to living like a pauper but entirely debt free, and I can finally start putting my money towards things that matter. I really wish I'd gotten good advice about where I should probably head a decade and a half ago, when I still had savings and a larger support network. I would have only had to go through this once, though I know I'm one of the lucky ones in that I've been able to pay it off at all.

I'm not against student debt in general, schools unfortunately cost money, I just wish the guidance counselors talked about the ROI of particular degrees and pushed the trades and technical colleges harder. My ability to talk about the socioeconomic results of the black plague doesn't enhance my employability. Thankfully I figured out that SQL, Python, and C# does on my own.

Re: The Lasting Consequences of Student Debt

#29

Post by dragonwriter » Tue, Apr 04, 2017, 2:32 PM UTC

rglover wrote: post #22

uiri wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is "did exactly what they were told" different from "did not think for themselves" ? Any kind of large decision demands a cost-benefit analysis, including opportunity costs, time value of money, etc. The labour market does not change that much in 4-5 years (barring something like the 08-09 financial meltdown). It should be straightforward to check whether a degree is necessary in order to land a decent job - appl…

You're assuming a proper amount of intelligence/decisiveness at ~18 years old. I was a fucking airhead at 18 (11 years ago) and, like most kids, listened to my parents as I thought they knew best. They were not financially intelligent and as a result, put me on a precarious path with the best intentions of me having what they understood as a better future. I also chose a path back then (working in television) that ha…

> You're assuming a proper amount of intelligence/decisiveness at ~18 years old.

18 year olds don't lack intelligence, they (in general) lack impulse control and the practical ability to effectively weigh consequences of concrete decisions (evaluating them in the abstract is not a problem.) This ability generally isn't fully fenced until the mid-20s.

Re: The Lasting Consequences of Student Debt

#30

Post by 67726e » Tue, Apr 04, 2017, 2:35 PM UTC

austenallred wrote: post #20

uiri wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is "did exactly what they were told" different from "did not think for themselves" ? Any kind of large decision demands a cost-benefit analysis, including opportunity costs, time value of money, etc. The labour market does not change that much in 4-5 years (barring something like the 08-09 financial meltdown). It should be straightforward to check whether a degree is necessary in order to land a decent job - appl…

That's easy to say in retrospect. But when you're a naive and scared 18-year-old trying to navigate a life you don't understand you may not be thinking quite so clearly. For example I have one friend who was an immigrant. First generation college graduate, parents don't speak English, and his parents take home more working construction than he does. That wasn't what was sold to him, but he bears all of the risk and a…

You've just had "college is the only way" drilled into your head for the 13 years. You've been told and conditioned to understand that if you do not go to college, you will be flipping hamburgers for minimum wage. The people telling you this are your parents, your friends' parents, your teachers, your principals, your guidance counselors. All of these people are supposed to help you, right?

Of course, you've also go to contend with the fact that it's culturally acceptable for your parents to toss you out on your ass the day you hit eighteen. So you're faced with the prospect of having to go it your own, at eighteen with no life experience and probably very little savings. There's probably very few jobs in the area, and it would be hard to live off them. Or you can just sign your name on a piece of paper and be whisked away to the mythical land of college. Who knows, you'll probably get to drink with your bros and get laid. Sounds like a great time?

At a certain point this stuff stops being "think for yourself" and is just straight up indoctrination. Maybe you're lucky and your school district has some kind of alternative program for trades, or maybe JROTC and you figure out the military isn't a horrible option. For most? It's not even a consideration, it's college or a life of failure. I can't really blame a lot of folks for not realizing how shit things would be. They were brainwashed.