Trolls are winning the internet, technologists say • Hacker News Board

Re: Trolls are winning the internet, technologists say

#111

Post by anothercomment » Fri, Mar 31, 2017, 7:54 PM UTC

Barrin92 wrote: post #106

welanes wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, but you don't have to go there. That's the point. Trolls aren't winning the Internet, for the most part they're loitering in those corners of the web you'd expect to find them.

if the internet is supposed to be a truly public platform, that is to say a space where different opinions can collide productively then the internet at the moment is clearly losing. It's not that the trolls occupy the corners, it's that they occupy the big, visible public spaces of the internet, while everybody else is driven into digital sanctuaries. That clearly is a failure if the stated goal is to genuinely demo…

big, visible spaces of the internet - you mean the media?

Re: Trolls are winning the internet, technologists say

#112

Post by problems » Fri, Mar 31, 2017, 7:55 PM UTC

chrisdbaldwin wrote: post #105

CarolineW wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You say: > People are simply not trustworthy, ... In my experience the vast majority of people are trustworthy. The problem is that the tiny minority of people who are not trustworthy are winning the internet because they have time, and shout loudly. More, some of them do obnoxious and potentially dangerous things. That's why people get upset - because it is a tiny minority that spoil the whole thing. If only we coul…

Sorry to burst your bubble, but citing your experience with people is equivalent to trolling. Your anecdotal evidence doesn't agree with what's been studied in Behavioral Economics. The problem is not that a tiny minority are untrustworthy; the problem is that a large majority lie (a little bit) often and by nature.

I think this actually explains a lot of what's considered "trolling" when it comes to political topics.

Many individuals stretching the truth for their side just a little bit adds up to a warped picture in total and gets blamed as if it's a goal.

Re: Trolls are winning the internet, technologists say

#113

Post by jknoepfler » Fri, Mar 31, 2017, 7:57 PM UTC

aantix wrote: post #104

jknoepfler wrote: post #67

I don't understand this article at all. I participate in two large professional forums (one for poker, one for development). The professionals are winning the internet there. There are dedicated subforums for trolls and random bs, which are pretty funny sometimes, but serve as an outlet for the garbage. I browse hacker news... It is what it is, I'm happy with it as a content sharing platform. My biggest gripe is the…

Oh man, have you ever tried to have a political discussion on Facebook? Even citing sources, trying to be diligent... And then, the only response you get is... "that's not right!". And that response is somehow given equal weighting? I actually wish Facebook, the place where a majority of Internet discussion probably occurs, WOULD institute a dislike button and suppress those comments that get down voted too much (lik…

I mean, I can hop on the gripe-train about Facebook, but the only way I've found to have meaningful political conversations is over a very narrow topic with the expectation that parties come well-researched and willing to continue researching. Politics is excruciatingly complicated, trying to have a cogent conversation about it on Facebook is like trying to have a deep talk about religion while riding bumper cars.

Re: Trolls are winning the internet, technologists say

#114

Post by pm90 » Fri, Mar 31, 2017, 8:01 PM UTC

Banthum wrote: post #77

MR4D wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's more of a signal to noise problem. We've had that issue before in society (e.g. the Middle Ages), when information flow was not constructive, and therefore not _additive_. The net result was that society moved sideways, not forward. Contrast that with Victorian England, where large parts of society had "manners", which allowed for information to be constructive, and society (technology, etc) could evolve…

Regarding manners, it really depends on what those manners are. Chinese medieval society was very orderly and mannered; there were clear standards of behavior (at least for the elites). But the manners in question were conservative and did not encourage innovation, so they did not advance rapidly and ended up far behind Europe despite having a head start. The enforced homogeneity of thought and thus destroyed opportu…

I'm assuming by "manners" you are talking about societal norms and regulations. And you're correct in your diagnosis that China has the most fertile regions in the world. However, these manners didn't really affect Chinese "development" as much as you imply.

The imperial exam is good example of just how advanced the Chinese nation was for most of history. China as a country remained politically united for most of known history, quite a remarkable feat if you think about it. One of the enablers was a professional bureaucracy that allowed the state to remain strong without being challenged by regional usurpers.

This is a huge topic of course but one of the reasons why China fell behind is because certain isolationist policies took hold just when the modern era dawned, pushing China farther and farther behind simply due to the backbreaking speed of modern development.

Another reason why I don't think "manners" matter is Japan; isolationist until the Meiji Restoration, rapidly modernized after despite the "manners" remaining intact.

Re: Trolls are winning the internet, technologists say

#115

Post by DictumExNihilo » Fri, Mar 31, 2017, 8:02 PM UTC

What if most of them aren't "trolls" at all, but rather people who have something to say that is important to them and they choose a method to say it that upsets some people?

The base assumption is that many of them are old-school variety: they seek disruption for its own sake. Suppose for a moment that this base assumption should not be taken as axiomatic. What else might motivate such a person? Some of you are quick to jump to the conclusion that money is the only other motivation. But money isn't what motivates everyone. Lots of people create art, for example, and receive little to no money for what they do.

What if some people are trying to motivate others to think about the things they believe, say, and do? Their medium need not be literature, paintings, music, sculpture, and so forth. A sarcastic tongue can teach too. It can spread ideas and challenge assumptions. Writing a lengthy essay that nobody will read may be a counterproductive use of time.

People roll their eyes if one brings up philosophy in a casual setting. I see a lot of things people call "trolling" as small performances of philosophy. Not all of them are effective, virtuous, or well-informed. But some are. The ones that really get under our skin are the ones who actually understand us the best, they know our weaknesses and exploit them. There is too much focus on who they are and whether or not they're getting paid (because they probably aren't) and not enough on what is being said. In a lot of cases, what isn't said is just as important. If the "troll" wants you to think about your own positions, he may just omit several critical details on purpose and let you fill in the blanks.

Diogenes didn't make people happy when he walked about in broad daylight with a lantern looking for "an honest man", he made some of them laugh, and made others angry. Socrates made enemies by arguing with people and showing them that they didn't really know why they believed as they did. I've had more productive conversations with people in my life when I took an adversarial position to them under the veil of anonymity, even though I agreed with their position. If I can argue a position I don't agree with and hold my own, the other guy comes out of it with new ammunition to defeat it too (or more ambition to find some), and they often teach me a few tricks along the way.

It is entirely too easy to dismiss a person if all you think they want is to make you mad with what they've said.

Re: Trolls are winning the internet, technologists say

#116

Post by Barrin92 » Fri, Mar 31, 2017, 8:02 PM UTC

anothercomment wrote: post #111

Barrin92 wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

if the internet is supposed to be a truly public platform, that is to say a space where different opinions can collide productively then the internet at the moment is clearly losing. It's not that the trolls occupy the corners, it's that they occupy the big, visible public spaces of the internet, while everybody else is driven into digital sanctuaries. That clearly is a failure if the stated goal is to genuinely demo…

big, visible spaces of the internet - you mean the media?

sure, those are affected to. The comment sections originally intended for discussion on most big media sites are toxic even with moderation or have become so bad that some news sites have ended the experiment altogether.

That's a pretty sad result given that the whole idea was to break down the barrier between journalists and readers.

Re: Trolls are winning the internet, technologists say

#117

Post by jknoepfler » Fri, Mar 31, 2017, 8:03 PM UTC

ThrustVectoring wrote: post #73

jknoepfler wrote: post #67

I don't understand this article at all. I participate in two large professional forums (one for poker, one for development). The professionals are winning the internet there. There are dedicated subforums for trolls and random bs, which are pretty funny sometimes, but serve as an outlet for the garbage. I browse hacker news... It is what it is, I'm happy with it as a content sharing platform. My biggest gripe is the…

You're in the top 1% or 0.1% of filtering for quality, IMO. Go spend some "quality time" on /r/the_donald for a more typical experience.

I don't feel any need to do that on any kind of regular basis, any more than I feel the need to browse pro-anorexia or pro-suicide forums. I certainly take the view that one should keep one's eyes open, but the presence of human garbage (which is a cultural constant) has never bogged down the internet for me. (The worst of the internet - snuff porn, child porn, violent hate groups, people selling people, or murder, or weapons, or whatever - is as old as the internet. /r/the_donald is just like, I don't know... whatever).

Like, why wouldn't I think that the contents of the internet would be a reflection of the contents of our society?

Re: Trolls are winning the internet, technologists say

#118

Post by theoh » Fri, Mar 31, 2017, 8:04 PM UTC

Banthum wrote: post #77

MR4D wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's more of a signal to noise problem. We've had that issue before in society (e.g. the Middle Ages), when information flow was not constructive, and therefore not _additive_. The net result was that society moved sideways, not forward. Contrast that with Victorian England, where large parts of society had "manners", which allowed for information to be constructive, and society (technology, etc) could evolve…

Regarding manners, it really depends on what those manners are. Chinese medieval society was very orderly and mannered; there were clear standards of behavior (at least for the elites). But the manners in question were conservative and did not encourage innovation, so they did not advance rapidly and ended up far behind Europe despite having a head start. The enforced homogeneity of thought and thus destroyed opportu…

Lived experience is all any of us has got, in terms of experimental data. If someone thinks they are having a bad time, it's difficult and dangerous to discount that: right now there is no way to assess the validity of someone else's subjective judgement. To rule it out completely is going to far, almost denying the reality (pleasant or unpleasant) of one's own life...

Re: Trolls are winning the internet, technologists say

#119

Post by wtf_is_up » Fri, Mar 31, 2017, 8:04 PM UTC

aantix wrote: post #104

jknoepfler wrote: post #67

I don't understand this article at all. I participate in two large professional forums (one for poker, one for development). The professionals are winning the internet there. There are dedicated subforums for trolls and random bs, which are pretty funny sometimes, but serve as an outlet for the garbage. I browse hacker news... It is what it is, I'm happy with it as a content sharing platform. My biggest gripe is the…

Oh man, have you ever tried to have a political discussion on Facebook? Even citing sources, trying to be diligent... And then, the only response you get is... "that's not right!". And that response is somehow given equal weighting? I actually wish Facebook, the place where a majority of Internet discussion probably occurs, WOULD institute a dislike button and suppress those comments that get down voted too much (lik…

The problem with downvotes is they are susceptible to brigading and in political discussions, there are essentially 2 hivemind brigades. In the end, any point that doesn't agree with the majority hivemind on the platform gets buried. /r/politics is a case study in this.

Re: Trolls are winning the internet, technologists say

#120

Post by LoSboccacc » Fri, Mar 31, 2017, 8:05 PM UTC

MR4D wrote: post #49

pervycreeper wrote: post #26

If we define "troll" as anyone who posts inflammatory, bad faith, needlessly aggressive, insulting, false, or otherwise unproductive content, then the entire class of authors of the genre of news article decrying trolling and harassment are themselves trolls. >Of course, this is already happening, just out of sight of most of us Why would they consider that to be such a big problem, if it's not bothering those who ar…

I think it's more of a signal to noise problem. We've had that issue before in society (e.g. the Middle Ages), when information flow was not constructive, and therefore not _additive_. The net result was that society moved sideways, not forward. Contrast that with Victorian England, where large parts of society had "manners", which allowed for information to be constructive, and society (technology, etc) could evolve…

Well a large part of our daily communication is still how's weather like, gossip and what's for dinner.

Internet may look like it's all lolcats and trolls if you look hard enough, but that's like dropping into a teenage group and complain all they talk all day is tits and soccer*

At any time one can still go on a gated, moderated community and obtain meaningful noise free communication with little interference from trolls and attention seekers.

This whole piece reads like "the problem of wetness in swimming" - a non problem that has been created by putting oneself into that condition in the first place.

*actual sport may vary geographically