Trolls are winning the internet, technologists say • Hacker News Board

Re: Trolls are winning the internet, technologists say

#21

Post by dbelchamber » Fri, Mar 31, 2017, 6:08 PM UTC

rjbwork wrote: post #9

geofft wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My screen is of a fixed size; my days are of a fixed length. If you want to put foolish words on your screen more power to you, but if they're on my screen or taking my time, that impedes me doing whatever I want to do with my screen or my time. That is, the more dialogue that I'm uninterested in that I lack tools to filter, the more my dialogue is being controlled by DoS. That is the fundamental paradox of open disc…

So your solution is to be given tools to enforce your cognitive bias reinforcing filter bubble? That's not a solution, that's a technology provided lobotomy. A dialogue takes two - if you don't like the dialogue taking place, instead of attempting to quiet the other voices, perhaps just remove yourself from the dialogue.

As a counterpoint, the biggest gripe of "trolling" that I have is that it prevents dialogue rather than adding to it. It's one thing to argue for say Nazi ideology in a relevant conversation with the purpose of expressing a genuine point (this would be a rare event indeed), but that is not what trolls are doing. Instead, they are invading a conversation with ad hominem attacks as well as distracting and attention-seeking behaviors.

Preventing trolling does not inherently involve silencing points of view. All it should be doing is removing unhelpful, unsolicited, and off topic nonsense. Even the most evil views that I can think of should not be censored, under the condition that they are actually being discussed with the interest of discourse, for that truly is what "dialogue" is. But again, in that event it isn't really "trolling".

Re: Trolls are winning the internet, technologists say

#22

Post by michaelchisari » Fri, Mar 31, 2017, 6:08 PM UTC

the_af wrote: post #15

alexkavon wrote: post #2

Trolls were always winning the internet. From "RTFM" attitudes to anonymous user accounts. It's a troll playground. Don't get me wrong the internet was built to be/can be an incredible tool, but let's not misconstrue this is a new trend. EDIT: I find the issue with the candor on the internet is lack of context 90% of the time.

> From "RTFM" attitudes While agree some internet users are a bit too gung-ho with RTFM, I think it's unfair to lump them with trolls. While veterans can be harsh and unfriendly, the RTFM response is often warranted (though, again, it could be phrased more nicely -- and the default assumption should be that the person seeking help is well-intentioned). Otherwise, many online communities would be completely overrun by…

I disagree. I think that hand-holding beginners can be one of the best services a community can provide, and it can go a long way to growing the community.

That doesn't mean everybody needs to be teacher/mentor/educator. But the people who don't want to be can also just keep out of the conversation, instead of rudely pointing to some 300 page manual and telling someone with passion and interest to screw off.

Re: Trolls are winning the internet, technologists say

#23

Post by iamcasen » Fri, Mar 31, 2017, 6:08 PM UTC

rjbwork wrote: post #9

geofft wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My screen is of a fixed size; my days are of a fixed length. If you want to put foolish words on your screen more power to you, but if they're on my screen or taking my time, that impedes me doing whatever I want to do with my screen or my time. That is, the more dialogue that I'm uninterested in that I lack tools to filter, the more my dialogue is being controlled by DoS. That is the fundamental paradox of open disc…

So your solution is to be given tools to enforce your cognitive bias reinforcing filter bubble? That's not a solution, that's a technology provided lobotomy. A dialogue takes two - if you don't like the dialogue taking place, instead of attempting to quiet the other voices, perhaps just remove yourself from the dialogue.

Filtering out thousands of "Obama is a monkey" type comments is not reinforcing anyone's cognitive bias...

Re: Trolls are winning the internet, technologists say

#24

Post by alexkavon » Fri, Mar 31, 2017, 6:11 PM UTC

the_af wrote: post #15

alexkavon wrote: post #2

Trolls were always winning the internet. From "RTFM" attitudes to anonymous user accounts. It's a troll playground. Don't get me wrong the internet was built to be/can be an incredible tool, but let's not misconstrue this is a new trend. EDIT: I find the issue with the candor on the internet is lack of context 90% of the time.

> From "RTFM" attitudes While agree some internet users are a bit too gung-ho with RTFM, I think it's unfair to lump them with trolls. While veterans can be harsh and unfriendly, the RTFM response is often warranted (though, again, it could be phrased more nicely -- and the default assumption should be that the person seeking help is well-intentioned). Otherwise, many online communities would be completely overrun by…

Agreed. I guess I'm not saying RTFM isn't needed (I rtfm all the time). However it's the bad taste that's left behind and the potential miscommunication from the simple action of telling someone to read the fucking manual. There are better ways to get the original message across.

Re: Trolls are winning the internet, technologists say

#25

Post by moomin » Fri, Mar 31, 2017, 6:12 PM UTC

alphonsegaston wrote: post #14

Is this really a problem of technology though? Seems more the artifact of a modern culture so predicated on con-artistry and spectacle, that abuse and manipulation have become the dominant form of expression. Technology makes this easier for sure. But I think it's the futureless world of hucksterism being articulated to everyone that makes behaving this way attractive to so many people.

Yeah, it pretty much is. If you're going to credit the development of the web and related technologies with the economic benefits it has delivered, we need to take it on the chin for the damage it has caused to our society.

Every time we disrupt an industry, especially media, we are by definition shaping society. It's about time we as technologists started being honest about that.

Re: Trolls are winning the internet, technologists say

#26

Post by pervycreeper » Fri, Mar 31, 2017, 6:13 PM UTC

If we define "troll" as anyone who posts inflammatory, bad faith, needlessly aggressive, insulting, false, or otherwise unproductive content, then the entire class of authors of the genre of news article decrying trolling and harassment are themselves trolls.

>Of course, this is already happening, just out of sight of most of us

Why would they consider that to be such a big problem, if it's not bothering those who are wont to be bothered? The true motivation for these comments is clear, but remains unsaid: what "trolls" are posting is outside the control of these would-be authorities.

The technology community must pick between enabling universal surveillance and censorship, or protecting the privacy of the vulnerable, including those who hold minority opinions and express themselves in ways that could be deemed "unpleasant".

Re: Trolls are winning the internet, technologists say

#27

Post by st3v3r » Fri, Mar 31, 2017, 6:14 PM UTC

rjbwork wrote: post #9

geofft wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My screen is of a fixed size; my days are of a fixed length. If you want to put foolish words on your screen more power to you, but if they're on my screen or taking my time, that impedes me doing whatever I want to do with my screen or my time. That is, the more dialogue that I'm uninterested in that I lack tools to filter, the more my dialogue is being controlled by DoS. That is the fundamental paradox of open disc…

So your solution is to be given tools to enforce your cognitive bias reinforcing filter bubble? That's not a solution, that's a technology provided lobotomy. A dialogue takes two - if you don't like the dialogue taking place, instead of attempting to quiet the other voices, perhaps just remove yourself from the dialogue.

That's what they're trying to do.

But I'm getting really, really, really tired of people conflating the "other side" stuff with the trolling stuff. Look at all the stuff sent to Leslie Jones last summer. Do you honestly think that was meant to be a dialog? Of course not. That was trolling. That was harassment. And that is what people are trying to filter out.

Re: Trolls are winning the internet, technologists say

#28

Post by st3v3r » Fri, Mar 31, 2017, 6:15 PM UTC

KaiserPro wrote: post #7

Sigh The Trolls have been with the internet from the start. I would say that actually they are mostly contained (why? because its really fucking difficult to be anonymous. Plus you are more than likely to be prosecuted for whatever you've done) So whats changed? more people are on platforms like twitter, and seem to think that fake internet points are real. The vast majority of "trolling" is pretty low grade "die", "…

I'm sorry, but this "ignore the trolls" meme has been proven wrong time and again these past few years. It's not a solution.

Re: Trolls are winning the internet, technologists say

#29

Post by CarolineW » Fri, Mar 31, 2017, 6:15 PM UTC

problems wrote: post #18

accountface wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the contrary... these trolls have SWATted, stalked, ddos'd, called, doxxed, and harassed normal people. They've spammed business, social media accounts, email... For some people the impact on their life is very real. I can't use my name publicly on the internet because of trolls. This impacts my life in a huge way.

I hate this attitude of "blame everything on the trolls". You can't use your real name on the internet because using your real name on the internet is basically asking for trouble. You have to defend yourself in the same way you have to look at ads and read media critically and don't believe everything someone says on the phone or in the mail. It's really nothing new, it's just on the internet this time. Scamming and…

You say:

> People are simply not trustworthy, ...

In my experience the vast majority of people are trustworthy. The problem is that the tiny minority of people who are not trustworthy are winning the internet because they have time, and shout loudly. More, some of them do obnoxious and potentially dangerous things.

That's why people get upset - because it is a tiny minority that spoil the whole thing. If only we could stop that tiny minority ...

Re: Trolls are winning the internet, technologists say

#30

Post by czep » Fri, Mar 31, 2017, 6:17 PM UTC

wvenable wrote: post #13

The real problem is that bytes are effectively free. Here I am, using up your bytes right now. Using up the bytes on Hacker news. The only limit is my own time, effort, and energy. You think this means that we're all equal; we all have equal access to sharing bytes. But the problem is that trolls have infinite time and energy to post bytes. They have significantly more power and influence than you do because of that…

What are some good tips for controlling or at least mitigating trolling on sites that depend on user generated content?

Moderation, flagging, downvoting, IP address rate limits, keyword blacklisting, are these effective?