Big Tech Company Salaries Are Hurting Startups • Hacker News Board

Re: Big Tech Company Salaries Are Hurting Startups

#331

Post by HelloNurse » Thu, Mar 30, 2017, 4:45 PM UTC

throwaway2016a wrote: post #234

jdbernard wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds like he is well aware that they aren't paying market salaries: > - We are probably priced out of the market

Also what I meant when I said... > I work at a startup that isn't profitable yet so our salaries are very low... ... was "too low... if we could afford it I'd pay three times that much" not "oh look what a great deal we are getting! Haha, suckers!"

If the candidate received and accepted another offer for twice what you would pay him, it is hard evidence that you pay half market value.

Planning to pay people half market value is madness. If you cannot afford salaries, you need a business plan that involves more profits and/or more "runway" of sacrificial capital or debt.

Re: Big Tech Company Salaries Are Hurting Startups

#332

Post by mathattack » Thu, Mar 30, 2017, 5:36 PM UTC

st3v3r wrote: post #289

mathattack wrote: post #175

The idea that VC-funded startups should pay the same cash salaries as big companies is a sign of hot markets. It happened in 1999 as well. In reality, startups should pay less because they give equity, allow more freedom and creation, and have less stupid corporate rules. It's not for everyone, but that's the tradeoff. Generally when you're borrowing from VCs who expect a 30-50% return on their equity, it's a bad ide…

Why should VCs get a 30-50% return on what they put in, but engineers don't get a 30-50% return on the salary they sacrificed to actually do the damn work of the startup?

I agree - which is why startup employees get equity.

Re: Big Tech Company Salaries Are Hurting Startups

#333

Post by st3v3r » Thu, Mar 30, 2017, 6:09 PM UTC

mathattack wrote: post #332

st3v3r wrote: post #289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why should VCs get a 30-50% return on what they put in, but engineers don't get a 30-50% return on the salary they sacrificed to actually do the damn work of the startup?

I agree - which is why startup employees get equity.

Except that equity is worth nowhere near the equity that VCs get, and in the majority of cases does not represent a reasonable return over the opportunity cost of taking the higher salary instead.

Re: Big Tech Company Salaries Are Hurting Startups

#334

Post by am8 » Thu, Mar 30, 2017, 6:55 PM UTC

throwaway2016a wrote: post #301

am8 wrote: post #285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I said Front end as an example could apply to most developer jobs really. Anyway, this guy you placed as a "lower mid", this is your judgement, how do you know it's correct? Did other people say the same? Perhaps he didn't have the skills you were looking for but was good at other things. Saying the other company didn't do their diligence is easy but is that really what happened? If you are hiring developers and plac…

First I didn't say "lower mid" ... I said "middle"... you are miss-categorizing what I said. It's a minor difference but the fact you changed the facts of the discussion in a direction that makes me look more extreme is very telling. Not only did you twist what I said but you even quoted it as if it is a citation. Second one of my other posts talk about how we've had great luck bringing on and mentoring juniors and t…

You said mid generously so I think it was fair to say lower middle.

No need to get competitive about who has the highest score - sounds like this guy dodged a bullet from having to work with you anyway. You seem like you would be a nightmare to work for.

Re: Big Tech Company Salaries Are Hurting Startups

#335

Post by ConfuciusSay02 » Thu, Mar 30, 2017, 9:17 PM UTC

memmcgee wrote: post #283

ConfuciusSay02 wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it weren't for the relentless attack on wages via wage fixing cartels, visa abuses, outsourcing, etc. we would likely be seeing the very top engineers making close to $1M per year. Far from that "hurting startups" it would be a benefit to all tech workers as wages would rise across the board. This framing of "hurting startups" is a euphemism for "hurting investors" or "hurting the wealthy". It's roughly the same c…

I would say that it's kind of the opposite. Having high developer costs means that you need investors in order to scale. This helps investors because it means if you want to succeed, you need to get investors, which they can use to their advantage to get more desirable terms for them and their rich friends.

Yes, good point. I think perhaps, as many things in life, it's a double edged sword.

Re: Big Tech Company Salaries Are Hurting Startups

#336

Post by tibbon » Thu, Mar 30, 2017, 9:24 PM UTC

throwaway2016a wrote: post #189

tibbon wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ooof, those rates are indeed pretty low. I get why you're doing it, but could having access to more engineers easier maybe help get you to profitability faster? I find interviewing a bunch of good people, making offers and then having them turn down the position because of money to be a big waste of time/money. How many hours/dollars do you spend in that 6 months? I had students leaving my classes at General Assembly…

> A 90k salary would have me turning down the position likely You and most other people. But not ALL people. That's why we fill our positions it just takes a lot of time and patience.

That time == money though. I'm curious how you calculate what's really worth it.

Re: Big Tech Company Salaries Are Hurting Startups

#337

Post by am8 » Thu, Mar 30, 2017, 10:06 PM UTC

am8 wrote: post #334

throwaway2016a wrote: post #301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First I didn't say "lower mid" ... I said "middle"... you are miss-categorizing what I said. It's a minor difference but the fact you changed the facts of the discussion in a direction that makes me look more extreme is very telling. Not only did you twist what I said but you even quoted it as if it is a citation. Second one of my other posts talk about how we've had great luck bringing on and mentoring juniors and t…

You said mid generously so I think it was fair to say lower middle. No need to get competitive about who has the highest score - sounds like this guy dodged a bullet from having to work with you anyway. You seem like you would be a nightmare to work for.

Also you remind me of PHP CEO https://twitter.com/PHP_CEO

Re: Big Tech Company Salaries Are Hurting Startups

#338

Post by smallgovt » Fri, Mar 31, 2017, 9:10 AM UTC

st3v3r wrote: post #289

mathattack wrote: post #175

The idea that VC-funded startups should pay the same cash salaries as big companies is a sign of hot markets. It happened in 1999 as well. In reality, startups should pay less because they give equity, allow more freedom and creation, and have less stupid corporate rules. It's not for everyone, but that's the tradeoff. Generally when you're borrowing from VCs who expect a 30-50% return on their equity, it's a bad ide…

Why should VCs get a 30-50% return on what they put in, but engineers don't get a 30-50% return on the salary they sacrificed to actually do the damn work of the startup?

Because we live in a capitalistic society where supply/demand ultimately controls price, not what's fair.

I.e. On average, engineers get paid what they do because if they demand any more, another peer of equal caliber, on average, will take their job. VC's get paid, on average, what they do because no other VC will do it for less.

Re: Big Tech Company Salaries Are Hurting Startups

#339

Post by ryanpepper » Fri, Mar 31, 2017, 3:57 PM UTC

pm90 wrote: post #174

ryanpepper wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The starting salary for a new graduate in the UK is probably in the range of £25-£33k, unless you're really lucky and do something like investment banking which is about half of what comparably qualified grads make in the US. On the other hand, there are additional things that are paid for because of various legal differences between the the UK and the US (such as paid maternity leave, paid sick leave, and employers…

We do have a paid maternity and sick leave in the US (well, at least in the tech companies. In my current company (IBM), we even have paid paternity leave). How expensive is the National Insurance tax? I can't imagine it being much more expensive than what my company pays for health insurance for its employees (although perhaps I'm wrong here). > The starting salary for a new graduate in the UK is probably in the ran…

Sure. How much are employer health plans in the US? Employer NI is 13% of the salary over £152 per week, so for an employee on £25000 per year, the employer has to fork out about another £2000 on top.

Almost all companies have a pension scheme too which are usually something like matched contributions - the employee contributes X% of their salary, and the employer contributes an additional X% of their salary up to some threshold (usually 5-10%).

Starting salary for any graduate job is about that in the UK, and most of Europe too. I suppose that the cost of upping and moving is significant enough to put people off. Plus, the difficulty in getting a visa is likely a major factor.

Re: Big Tech Company Salaries Are Hurting Startups

#340

Post by st3v3r » Fri, Mar 31, 2017, 4:15 PM UTC

smallgovt wrote: post #338

st3v3r wrote: post #289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why should VCs get a 30-50% return on what they put in, but engineers don't get a 30-50% return on the salary they sacrificed to actually do the damn work of the startup?

Because we live in a capitalistic society where supply/demand ultimately controls price, not what's fair. I.e. On average, engineers get paid what they do because if they demand any more, another peer of equal caliber, on average, will take their job. VC's get paid, on average, what they do because no other VC will do it for less.

So basically a bunch of classist bullshit.