Earlier quoted context omitted.
> ...found that I would want about 7% equity, in order to be interested. They said no, of course. You wanted 7% equity to make up for 20k? That seems a little excessive...
How would you know what excessive might be without valuing the company? Seems reasonable for a company with estimated current valuation of around $300k.
Big Tech Company Salaries Are Hurting Startups
231–240 of 348 posts
Re: Big Tech Company Salaries Are Hurting Startups
#232Earlier quoted context omitted.
The definition if Irony!!! Google is hurting us, so use a system by Google to read how Google is bad for (some) business(-es) which you could not read if Google didn't exist, while at the same time this article wouldn't exist if Google didn't exist! (and right about now I'm watching myself looking at me seeing me)
that isnt ironic
Re: Big Tech Company Salaries Are Hurting Startups
#233Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yes. I'm an older, successful dev in Chicago. I recently corresponded w/ a local startup CEO on linkedin. My skillset seemed to be a good fit for the role, but their stated top salary would be a 20K pay cut for me. So I ran a quick estimate, based on expected exit and expected dilution figures that I found on the internet (I know, grain of salt...), added a risk premium for myself, and found that I would want about 7…
> ...found that I would want about 7% equity, in order to be interested. They said no, of course. You wanted 7% equity to make up for 20k? That seems a little excessive...
Re: Big Tech Company Salaries Are Hurting Startups
#234Earlier quoted context omitted.
It sounds like you don't pay market salaries and are in denial
Sounds like he is well aware that they aren't paying market salaries: > - We are probably priced out of the market
> I work at a startup that isn't profitable yet so our salaries are very low...
... was "too low... if we could afford it I'd pay three times that much" not "oh look what a great deal we are getting! Haha, suckers!"
Re: Big Tech Company Salaries Are Hurting Startups
#235If you are a startup and are trying to compete head to head with Google / FB / Amazon / Apple / Microsoft for the same people, you are going to have a really hard time recruiting. But there are plenty of great engineers that don't want to work at those companies for various reasons. There are plenty of great engineers that want to work remotely and don't have that option at the large companies. There are also plenty…
As well as mid-career engineers who don't have a time nor willingness to prepare for CS-riddle based interviews.
On the flip side, it takes a huge amount of forethought to create different tests, projects, and screening practices for every position and then re-shaping for each experience level, particularly if the team is young and inexperienced; it's difficult to test for what you don't have yet.
Re: Big Tech Company Salaries Are Hurting Startups
#236Re: Big Tech Company Salaries Are Hurting Startups
#237The "Google compensation package" (not Salary) is making it a realistic option for Google employees to buy homes in the Bay Area after a few years of work. (Unfortunately thereafter, the RSU pyramid makes it really hard to leave Google, since you'd be giving up a virtual fortune, shimmering off in the distance like a mirage...) Your startups... aren't doing any of that. Most of them pay shit-all for equity and salary…
> Unfortunately thereafter, the RSU pyramid makes it really hard to leave Google, since you'd be giving up a virtual fortune, shimmering off in the distance like a mirage... Never understood that argument, how is it different from your base salary, isn't it a similar mirage? Per year you get XX USD in RSUs vesting, you don't have to consider granted RSUs as being "yours".
If you can/do get an offer that replaces your outstanding RSUs and you're willing to move on, then none of this really matters - you are going to move on and the whole conversation is moot.
However, RSUs are typically based on looking back at previous work, not forward like a salary. If you did a ton of work at the beginning of your career and earned a huge stack of RSUs, you've sunk a cost... but one that is easily recoverable simply by waiting. Even if your output drops.
The biggest problem is that people are very often more productive and energetic in this field at the beginning of their careers, so much so that big companies don't even want to touch older people - built-in Silicon Valley ageism. And that's its own whole can of worms...
So after a few years when their productivity begins to slide and their life priorities change, they get married and have kids and buy cars and homes and pay for private schools... and getting a new job becomes more difficult by virtue of ageism and the sheer volume of outstanding RSUs a company would have to offer you making you a very unattractive candidate, people find they literally cannot tolerate the risk of moving on.
I've heard stories of people willing to accept fates such as being "roofed" (see Hooli on Silicon Valley) for months at a time looking for a new position internally while learning to be a world class barista in the employee lounge, simply because by sitting on their ass and doing nothing, they can afford to buy a house next year, but they can't find a new job because nobody is willing to give them the half a million they feel is owned to them as what is essentially back pay. It becomes a working pension, albeit one where the end goal isn't funding retirement, it's the freedom to move on. This is so common a phenomenon it has a name: Golden Handcuffs.
So yeah, some percentage sunk cost, some percentage risk tolerance, some percentage boredom tolerance.
Re: Big Tech Company Salaries Are Hurting Startups
#238In my view, this complaint is just one step above an acquaintance who claims to have an amazing idea, and all you have to do as an engineer is make it into a reality and then we'll be super rich Oh... but you can't really pay me that much (or at all), but once this idea comes to fruition, I'll be so glad I invested all my time and energy. This is what I hear when a startup can't pay a competitive salary. If you can't…
No, this view is exactly the same as the folks that crawl out of the woodwork back in 2010 when they find out you write iOS apps: you build my idea, and we can split the profits. The fact that a startup throws some token amount of money at you doesn't change the formula.
Can't afford a million dollar CNC milling machine? Then you don't get to make widgets. Can't afford the going rate for a software developer? Then you don't get to make shitty throwaway apps for profit. The difference is that the milling machine vendors will tell you to pound sound when you whine that you can't afford it, whereas there's always a doey-eyed college grad ready to believe they're going to get rich writing the front-end for "Uber, only for cats".
Re: Big Tech Company Salaries Are Hurting Startups
#239Sounds like the market is telling startups that early engineers are worth more than 0.1% of stock options.
Maybe it can be, but I haven't seen it, nor has anyone I know working in the valley.
Re: Big Tech Company Salaries Are Hurting Startups
#240Sounds like the market is telling startups that early engineers are worth more than 0.1% of stock options.
O.1% of common shares with complicated tax options. Investors get preferred shares cause they invest money. But engineers get common shares even though they're asked to take paycuts. Startups insist this is "standard". Well I hope it's standard for them to fail until they actually value engineers. I don't see why engineers need to be a monastic underclass to subsidize founders and VCs.
Its comp they can take away, block or otherwise control.