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Big Tech Company Salaries Are Hurting Startups

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Re: Big Tech Company Salaries Are Hurting Startups

#181

Post by etergri »

AlexC04 wrote: post #63
zerr wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As well as mid-career engineers who don't have a time nor willingness to prepare for CS-riddle based interviews.

Ugghh... this exactly. I recently turned down a "we will fly you to the west coast" interview with one of the big five because I couldn't be bear the idea of spending weeks preparing for the 4-8 hour day of whiteboard coding (only to not get selected anyways). Spent the time hanging out with my girlfriend instead. Worth every minute.

Nobody will tell you this but.. you won at life over 95% of google engineers.

Re: Big Tech Company Salaries Are Hurting Startups

#182

Post by 727374 »

madamelic wrote: post #155
jboggan wrote: post #147

I'm leaving Google this week to start my own company again. The prospect of eventually sitting on the other side of the table and competing with these big companies used to bother me but I've realized that the personalities I'm looking for don't flourish at Google, and vice versa. Google engineers (those that stay past the first vesting event) tend to be very risk averse, even for engineers. I'm not talking about tec…

>On our last team Vegas trip I kept track of how much everyone was gambling as a proxy for their risk appetite Yikes. Gambling is just a dumb idea in general (it is literally designed to make you lose money)... unless you are gambling with other's money. ;) There is a diff between "With enough work, this risky thing could work out" and "With enough luck, this risky thing could work out if I stop while I am ahead"

> Yikes. Gambling is just a dumb idea in general

Or, a thrilling and potentially expensive form of entertainment. I don't feel it's dumb when I lose $200 at the blackjack table when I'm in Vegas for a bachelor party.

Re: Big Tech Company Salaries Are Hurting Startups

#183

Post by WalterSear »

inputcoffee wrote: post #73
WalterSear wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, it costs more.

So then the two optional responses are: 1. If the startup doesn't have the money to pay more, what should it do? 2. If a startup decides not to opt for any of the options, and the competitors do, what should it do? -- Note: the competitor can be in India, for example.

Increase the equity for early employees by roughly an order of magnitude and aggressively protect their, still relatively small piece of pie, from dilution.

Re: Big Tech Company Salaries Are Hurting Startups

#184

Post by bradleyjg »

phd514 wrote: post #156
krschultz wrote: post #7

If you are a startup and are trying to compete head to head with Google / FB / Amazon / Apple / Microsoft for the same people, you are going to have a really hard time recruiting. But there are plenty of great engineers that don't want to work at those companies for various reasons. There are plenty of great engineers that want to work remotely and don't have that option at the large companies. There are also plenty…

Since when does remote mean a lower salary? I work remotely in the US and I expect (and receive) a market rate salary that's not based on my location. Offering me a lower salary because I've chosen to live in a lower cost-of-living city will ensure that I don't consider working for you. It's not always an employee's market, but while it is, I intend to take full advantage of it.

Of course it means a lower salary.

There are some number of jobs out there and most of them don't want remote workers. Job applicants that are willing to take jobs that forbid remote work can also apply to those that permit remote work, while workers that will only look at jobs that allow remote work can only apply to the small subset that allow it.

It's straightforward micro-economic exercise to see that the when you hold all other things equal the market clearing rate for a particular employee is higher if he is willing to take on-site work than if he is not.

It'd be the same thing if an employee was only willing to work at companies whose names started with a-m.

Re: Big Tech Company Salaries Are Hurting Startups

#185

Post by ConfuciusSay02 »

pm90 wrote: post #111
jasode wrote: post #78

The way the article frames the $350k competitive salary as a "problem" for startups is backwards. If you're a businessman, you build a business that works with the prevailing pricing that's out there. That includes prices for everything such as raw materials, office rent, AWS/GCP cloud costs, government taxes & fees, and yes, high programmer salaries. Complaining that your startup is "hurt" because AWS egress transfe…

I agree with most of your comment. One thing to note though is the whole scandal where Steve Jobs colluded with other firms into a non-poaching kind of agreement, essentially distorting the market. So that is a possible outcome as well.

If it weren't for the relentless attack on wages via wage fixing cartels, visa abuses, outsourcing, etc. we would likely be seeing the very top engineers making close to $1M per year.

Far from that "hurting startups" it would be a benefit to all tech workers as wages would rise across the board.

This framing of "hurting startups" is a euphemism for "hurting investors" or "hurting the wealthy". It's roughly the same complaint as when they claim that there are "tech worker shortages".

They want to pay employees pennies on the dollar, full stop.

Re: Big Tech Company Salaries Are Hurting Startups

#186

Post by wpietri »

jasode wrote: post #78

The way the article frames the $350k competitive salary as a "problem" for startups is backwards. If you're a businessman, you build a business that works with the prevailing pricing that's out there. That includes prices for everything such as raw materials, office rent, AWS/GCP cloud costs, government taxes & fees, and yes, high programmer salaries. Complaining that your startup is "hurt" because AWS egress transfe…

That's a reasonable tactical perspective. For the individual entrepreneur, it's valid.

That doesn't mean that this article isn't a valid complaint from other perspectives. E.g., It's totally reasonable that CEOs and investors will grumble about this. I'm sure Bezos, Page, and Brin were grumbling at the costs back in the day.

But I think the interesting perspective here is at the ecosystem level. If startups have to spend a lot more, it changes what's possible. We'll have fewer startups. We'll have less interesting startups. The incentive to pretend to be a zillion dollar winner is higher. As is the incentive to pursue artificially amazing growth rates. And to lie, cheat, and steal your way to making good on your sky-high valuations.

Personally, I think the startup world was way more interesting 10-20 years ago. The pressure to be the next unicorn is so intense that I think we've lost a lot. There are a lot of factors here, but I strongly believe that much higher living and operating costs is one of them.

Re: Big Tech Company Salaries Are Hurting Startups

#187

Post by pedrosorio »

spapas82 wrote: post #127
jasim wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You'll get programmers from developing countries with a good 10 years on them for $70k if you can build a company around a completely async remote culture. And I'm not talking about fad-following framework-crazed devs, but rugged pros who'll cost a premium if they were in a developed country.

Hello, this is not only true for developing countries but even for developed countries. I'll speak about my country, Greece. The average wage for a junior developer is a little less than 20 000 euros per month (around 1000 years/month x 14 months + 4000 for insurance etc) while for a senior may be a little more (but probably less than 30 000, depends on years and kind of work). Wages of more than 35 000 euros are sel…

"most of these people are better than the ones in Silicon Valley since they are working in their own country which the jobs are not much instead of migrating to a different place to find a job"

These people are better than the ones in Silicon Valley because they refuse to emigrate? I don't follow your logic.

Re: Big Tech Company Salaries Are Hurting Startups

#188

Post by st3v3r »

heurist wrote: post #81
monkmartinez wrote: post #18

I am naive... however, some opinions... If the startup is truly revolutionary|innovative, shouldn't we see VC's pounding down the doors to give them money? If they have money, shouldn't they spend that on their personnel (assuming they are not manufacturing robots or something) if we are talking software? Seems to me that startups want to have their cake and eat it too. If you have money to pay, then pay competitive…

No, VCs are fallible and don't always recognize opportunity. They may not trust that it can be delivered. They might be hedging their bets for whatever reason. Having a good product is no guarantee of significant funding. Most startups, even potential game-changers, only have a limited amount of cash on hand and need to make it stretch as far as possible. You're thinking about the unicorn case which is so rare as to…

I also have a limited amount of cash, and thus I need to work where I can maximize my compensation.

Re: Big Tech Company Salaries Are Hurting Startups

#189

Post by throwaway2016a »

tibbon wrote: post #90
throwaway2016a wrote: post #21

I work at a startup that isn't profitable yet so our salaries are very low... - Our typical junior makes $50 - 60k - A typical mid makes $65 - 75k - Seniors (including CTO) make $90 - 110k In greater Boston. It is VERY difficult to hire at those rates. We had someone come in interviewing for a senior that I would place as a mid (generously...) and he accepted another offer for $150k. At our scale he would be making $…

Ooof, those rates are indeed pretty low. I get why you're doing it, but could having access to more engineers easier maybe help get you to profitability faster? I find interviewing a bunch of good people, making offers and then having them turn down the position because of money to be a big waste of time/money. How many hours/dollars do you spend in that 6 months? I had students leaving my classes at General Assembly…

> A 90k salary would have me turning down the position likely

You and most other people. But not ALL people. That's why we fill our positions it just takes a lot of time and patience.

Re: Big Tech Company Salaries Are Hurting Startups

#190

Post by emcq »

thedevil wrote: post #41
bla2 wrote: post #5

Sounds like the market is telling startups that early engineers are worth more than 0.1% of stock options.

I had more of a financial background before becoming a software engineer. I was shocked when I found out "equity" given to early engineers is so puny. Why would someone work long hours for low pay with higher risk for 0.1% of high-risk small business?

From my own experience, it was naivety and manipulation.

I trusted the founder when he would make big promises for the future. He didn't bring up equity until the last moment once we already were ready to quit and join. In hindsight these are clearly common business tactics (get the person to accept before going into details), but as a young engineer I had more trust in older more experienced folks like the founder. Even when there were huge alarm bells ringing in my head, I said yes. It's hard to describe how a good salesman can have you saying yes to things you aren't comfortable with.

In the end the company crashed and burned after losing all it's founding team who all work at top companies now.

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