UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU • Hacker News Board

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#621

Post by presidente20 » Thu, Mar 30, 2017, 8:43 PM UTC

pluma wrote: post #616

notahacker wrote: post #572

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd assume the government should take full responsibility for who it appoints to receive the subsidies and what they do with them. But we're not talking about slush funds for doing nothing, we're talking about who makes policy. And funnily enough in Westminster we also have a Cabinet and PM setting the policy agenda that are chosen not by some universal franchise but nominated by the representatives of different loca…

Most of the tangible criticism/drama about the EU I've seen in UK media is actually about things people UK citizens or the UK government elected or otherwise put into those positions. The UK was a major driving force behind many of the international trade agreements that are being criticised for infringing on the rights of EU citizens, for example.

Can you substantiate that?

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#622

Post by presidente20 » Thu, Mar 30, 2017, 8:44 PM UTC

ben_w wrote: post #619

presidente20 wrote: post #394

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's a little more complicated than people not being bothered to vote. The European Parliament has relatively little power (e.g. to propose new laws) compared to a typical national parliament. I think people see that and also see that Euroskeptic MEPs are largely ignored. In the last UK European elections, UKIP won the most seats. That didn't get reflected in any shift in policy did it?

UKIP MEPs rather famously don't bother to vote in the EP as much as other MEPs.

Fair point but do you think it would make any difference?

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#623

Post by nthcolumn » Thu, Mar 30, 2017, 9:27 PM UTC

gpderetta wrote: post #544

presidente20 wrote: post #412

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It depends on the timescales of the predicted problems. I believe the studies predicted choppy waters whilst the UK divorces from the EU (short to medium term) which in my view is likely. However that's not the same as saying that leaving the EU is in principle bad for the economy. Secondly there are plenty of economists that think Brexit will work out fine but that is a somewhat unfashionable view so they keep their…

Long term, the UK, or what's left of it, will do fine, as it has for the last thousand year. Then again, long term we will be all dead.

Isn't that what the Romans said?

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#624

Post by TheAdamAndChe » Fri, Mar 31, 2017, 1:15 PM UTC

zeveb wrote: post #291

TheAdamAndChe wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That may be because the minimum wages are massively different for the two countries, with $0.48/hr in Mexico vs $4.98/hr in Spain[1]. Globalism does exploit the lower standard of living of other countries, after all. That means that even though there are massive tariffs, these "third world" countries can still make a profit because of the abysmal quality of life for its citizens. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lis…

Globalism, of course, is the only thing which can improve the abysmal quality of life of third-world citizens. Unless you can think of a reason why a jobless Mexican will have a better standard of living than one making 48¢/hour.

Serious question: What keeps Mexico and other smaller countries from forming their own industries and get their own economy going? Because if it's a systemic or governmental issue keeping their economy down, then why would we want to support that inefficient thing keeping it all down?

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#625

Post by ionised » Fri, Mar 31, 2017, 2:20 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #308

folli wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I absolutely see the advantages of having common standards, tariff agreements etc. to make trade across borders easier (i.e. something akin to the European Economic Area). I'm however also a proponent of federalism, because I believe that for a democracy to truly work it is necessary that the people still feel responsible for their votes and their decisions. This is something which I'm missing in centralised and unit…

What's at stake here is more fundamental than federalism: it's self determination. Throughout history, discrete groups have waged wars of independence to ensure that they can have a government that reflects their shared history, culture, and values. My family is from Bangladesh, which fought a war to separate from Pakistan over cultural/linguistic differences. In another example, Israel is engaged in an existential b…

People in the U.K. were very rightfully afraid of what that could lead to and decided they wanted to get off that train

37% of the electorate in the UK.

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#626

Post by ionised » Fri, Mar 31, 2017, 2:24 PM UTC

orbifold wrote: post #571

oblio wrote: post #547

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The EU is an oppressor, really? Hyperbole, much? Everyone joined the EU willingly. The fact that they can leave whenever is further proof that the EU is not autocratic.

Of course it is oppression, it is antidemocratic, was forced on the people and pushed heavily by propaganda. It is a project of the elites and industry, any benefits to ordinary people are far outweighed by the benefits of industry. For the longest time it was simply that: A number of economic treaties, the political stuff was added later on because people realised that it would be far easier to push through their ag…

> was forced on the people

When?

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#627

Post by ionised » Fri, Mar 31, 2017, 2:26 PM UTC

zigzigzag wrote: post #461

vkou wrote: post #439

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What's at stake here is more fundamental than federalism: it's self determination. Yet, Britain has done its best to deny the same right to self-determination to its subjects. Self-determination seems to be an excuse trotted out to support existing power structures. "We should secede from _____ - but nobody should secede from us." Britain and Ireland, Britain and India, Britain and Scotland... Britain had to be dra…

Uh, Britain organised a full blown referendum for Scotland after Scots voted a separatist party into their own local Parliament ... a referendum the nationalists then lost. Now perhaps there'll even be a second, despite said nationalists saying it would be a "once in a generation" event. How is that being dragged, kicking and screaming?

They voted to stay in the UK on the expectation that the UK would remain within the EU.

A second Scottish referendum is absolutely the right call to make and the only reason I can figure that English people are so against the idea, is that this time they expect to lose a member of the union.

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#628

Post by ionised » Fri, Mar 31, 2017, 2:36 PM UTC

oblio wrote: post #549

rayiner wrote: post #504

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And that's going fabulously . Our government is efficient and functional and totally manages to put aside regional differences to address pressing national issues.

You're still #1 in terms of total GDP and have the highest GDP per capita of any country with a population over 50 million. Don't sell your government short...

I'd wager that is more to do with its geography and wealth of natural resources in a land that was more or less ripe for the taking from the natives.

Think of it like starting a game of Civilization at renaissance/industrial age tech with democratic government on an island with abundant resources and no real enemies.

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#629

Post by ionised » Fri, Mar 31, 2017, 2:54 PM UTC

Nursie wrote: post #421

pluma wrote: post #389

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Switzerland and Iceland Sure but the UK is not Switzerland or Iceland. On the world stage Iceland is irrelevant. It's a lot like Switzerland without influence. Sure, Iceland can afford to be eccentric about world politics because it's not under the direct influence of other countries to the same extent as most are but it also doesn't hold any real influence itself. The UK doesn't want to be Iceland, it wants to be…

I'm sorry, you lost me when you started on about empire, I've seen nobody calling for a return to empire, or even invoking empire except as a way to harangue and belittle those who voted leave. You seem very hostile to the UK generally. Weird given your last comparatively friendly comment.

I'm British and I agree with everything he said.

There is a very real pro-Monarchy, post-Empire resentment of anything not British among a large section of the British people. They might not say it out loud, but it's clear in the things they say.

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#630

Post by ionised » Fri, Mar 31, 2017, 2:57 PM UTC

zigzigzag wrote: post #599

Nursie wrote: post #421

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry, you lost me when you started on about empire, I've seen nobody calling for a return to empire, or even invoking empire except as a way to harangue and belittle those who voted leave. You seem very hostile to the UK generally. Weird given your last comparatively friendly comment.

> You seem very hostile to the UK generally. Weird given your last comparatively friendly comment We'd better get used to this. Just look at statements by European politicians since the vote. Occasionally they make a token attempt to be friendly, and saying how of course everyone wants what's best for everyone, but then they go right back to talking about how awful it'll be for the UK and how it's like suicide, how t…

> My experience of anyone who thinks of themselves as "European" or a supporter of the EU is actually, when the surface is scratched, extremely angry and vicious.

Well that's a delightfully insulting, sweeping and utterly untrue generalisation.

Whatever makes you feel validated in your choices though I guess. It's easier to assume your opponents are just full of hate and anger instead of trying to understand that they are people with actual thoughts and concerns that are opposed to yours.