UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU • Hacker News Board

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#501

Post by Nursie » Wed, Mar 29, 2017, 7:32 PM UTC

meheleventyone wrote: post #457

vidarh wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with the structure of the EU is basically: How do you set up a supranational state without massive constitutional changes in all the member states? Because the appetite is not there for large constitutional changes. The result was basically a giant hack on top of the existing systems by leveraging the authority that the member state governments have to act as agents of their state in carrying out their du…

Iceland is part of the EEA through EFTA and as such needs to follow much of EU legislation without any real say in what it is. The country is actually split about 50/50 in whether they should continue talks to join the EU proper. Edit: Replied to the wrong comment. :(

Sure, but in a lot of matters where Iceland can make a decision, it can be effected by relatively small numbers of people, something I like very much.

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#502

Post by lordnacho » Wed, Mar 29, 2017, 7:33 PM UTC

barrkel wrote: post #455

rayiner wrote: post #308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's at stake here is more fundamental than federalism: it's self determination. Throughout history, discrete groups have waged wars of independence to ensure that they can have a government that reflects their shared history, culture, and values. My family is from Bangladesh, which fought a war to separate from Pakistan over cultural/linguistic differences. In another example, Israel is engaged in an existential b…

The core concept in EU law is subsidiarity. Look it up if you're unfamiliar - by treaty, the EU may only make laws where actions by individual countries are insufficient. I think you're being incredibly one-sided and myopic, if not ignorant. Collective action problems are real. Nation states are a poor way to deal with many cross-border problems, just like individuals without a government is a poor way to deal with m…

You can't "pool sovereignty". This is a rhetorical trick designed to make people forget that they are not getting what they want.

When everyone agrees on something, you don't have to coerce them. So sure, their sovereignty is pooled.

As soon as someone disagrees on something, they have to be forced to accept the group's decision. Typically there's some sort of horse trade going on so that nobody gets everything they want, because there's several things on the table.

Yes collective action problems are real, but there's no reason the collective needs to be larger and larger and encompass all issues rather than just a subset. Let decisions be made at the local level by default, and the few things that need regional or global action, have a talk about that. If what you're bringing up is compelling, a lot of other countries will agree.

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#503

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Mar 29, 2017, 7:33 PM UTC

barrkel wrote: post #455

rayiner wrote: post #308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's at stake here is more fundamental than federalism: it's self determination. Throughout history, discrete groups have waged wars of independence to ensure that they can have a government that reflects their shared history, culture, and values. My family is from Bangladesh, which fought a war to separate from Pakistan over cultural/linguistic differences. In another example, Israel is engaged in an existential b…

The core concept in EU law is subsidiarity. Look it up if you're unfamiliar - by treaty, the EU may only make laws where actions by individual countries are insufficient. I think you're being incredibly one-sided and myopic, if not ignorant. Collective action problems are real. Nation states are a poor way to deal with many cross-border problems, just like individuals without a government is a poor way to deal with m…

[deleted]

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#504

Post by rayiner » Wed, Mar 29, 2017, 7:36 PM UTC

astrodust wrote: post #493

raverbashing wrote: post #474

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While national independence is important, at a certain point, "sovereignty" is just a code word for some politicians or businessmen (like newspaper owners) to get more power. Your complaint seems like a good parroting of the brexiters "worries", but they are mostly uninformed complaints "hetrogenous body politic with hundreds of millions of other people with which they share little other than said bureaucracy" What a…

> "hetrogenous body politic with hundreds of millions of other people with which they share little other than said bureaucracy" Sounds a lot like the USA.

And that's going fabulously. Our government is efficient and functional and totally manages to put aside regional differences to address pressing national issues.

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#505

Post by prodmerc » Wed, Mar 29, 2017, 7:39 PM UTC

logicallee wrote: post #402

The EU should treat this like America treated secessionist states - the UK should be compelled to stay by force. Obviously there should not be any actual war, since the Brtis should just say, "well, all right." Afterward they should be full, normal participants, just as every state is a normal participant in the United States and has equal and fair votes in the Senate and House of Representatives. Why should this be…

A United States of Europe would be great, but what you're proposing is insane.

First of all, it won't work at all without military conflict, and from there it's World War 3.

Based on language alone, the EU would self-destruct so quickly you won't believe it if one EU country went to war against another, especially for the purpose of maintaining the "union".

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#506

Post by mpweiher » Wed, Mar 29, 2017, 7:40 PM UTC

cs02rm0 wrote: post #376

mpweiher wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hmm...it started at $1.1686. And now it is at $1.09, so 6% off.

It's spent more of its life than not above both figures.

So it was overvalued and is now coming back to earth. Good.

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#507

Post by kebolio » Wed, Mar 29, 2017, 7:40 PM UTC

genericpseudo wrote: post #459

Piskvorrr wrote: post #447

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed, there's the Troubles on the horizon again, as various Irish factions start talking about a united Ireland.

Britain is over within ten years, that's what today means. Scottish independence, some kind of enormous fudge in Northern Ireland, and Wales beginning to look towards the door. Sic transit gloria mundi.

Don't get where people get the idea that Wales are agitating for leaving the Union. Wales is more legally entrenched than any other of the constituent countries of the UK and also majority voted to leave the EU.

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#508

Post by prodmerc » Wed, Mar 29, 2017, 7:41 PM UTC

havondale wrote: post #18

dijit wrote: post #4

I'm British but live in the EU. I've been watching this from the outside and it makes me so very sad and despondent. Forgetting any inconvenience on my part (of which there are very few -I likely have access to an EU passport.). It's fucking stupid. No ifs, no buts, no apologies and respecting of alternate opinions. Just fucking stupid. Every single reason for leaving (other than "leave so the EU can get on without U…

Perhaps people didn't want 'ever closer integration' to a very undemocratic system of government. Unpopular opinion, but the economy isn't everything. I'd much rather live somewhere with a smaller economy where there's actually a mechanism to remove those in power.

> I'd much rather live somewhere with a smaller economy where there's actually a mechanism to remove those in power.

Like?

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#509

Post by beaconstudios » Wed, Mar 29, 2017, 7:41 PM UTC

pm90 wrote: post #462

beaconstudios wrote: post #390

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the whole point of delineating societal groups is to provide ring-fences for cultural groups that may otherwise be at each other's throats. Just look at the continuous fighting between Shi'ite and Sunni muslims that could arguably be traced back to the Sykes-Picot agreement drawing up borders that did not respect the locations of mutually-unfriendly groups.

Slight nitpick: The Shia-Sunni divide has plagued the Islamic world ever since the succession of Muhammad. Sure, Sykes-Picot aggravated it greatly, but it did not cause it.

Of course, but Sykes-Picot is a good demonstration of the importance of considerate borders.

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#510

Post by lordnacho » Wed, Mar 29, 2017, 7:42 PM UTC

afandian wrote: post #396

hiddencost wrote: post #388

Earlier quoted context omitted.

^-- Submarine argument of the current white nationalist movement. Basic flaw: it elides "the wants of white nationalists" with "the culture of the country" and tries to imply that the wants of white nationalists are the only one that exists. A subset of people are being prodded to give up their sovereignty; a significant chunk of folks in the UK actually wanted the EU, most notably immigrants, students, young folks.

As a British citizen I have more in common culturally with my German, Swedish, Austrian, Spanish, Danish, French etc friends and colleagues than I feel with a large chunk of my own country. The people who tell me that I should be patriotic and culturally identify with them as British are the people I'd want to run a million miles from.

Of course. Who doesn't have more in common with actual people they've befriended and worked with, as opposed to a nebulous notion of nationality?

But that isn't a basis for political decisions. The fact that you like the people that you're friends with is no reason to be in or out of the EU.

I presume you have friends who aren't from the EU as well, yet surely you do not believe in closer integration with those countries?

I have a similarly diverse group of friends, but it makes very little difference to what I think politically. For one, I doubt they'll be kicked out, but also I can't make decisions about politics based on a few individuals I happen to know.