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UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

bbc.com

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Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#411

Post by lkrubner »

ealexhudson wrote: post #3

I'm a big believer in not having assumptions and testing things with actual experiments. This is one experiment I'd rather not be participating in, though. It's difficult to see very much positive about this move; certainly there will be some benefits, but I expect greatly outweighed by the negatives (which will include higher prices, lower employment and probably lower standards for UK workers - the EU has consisten…

But, but, but, the Daily Mail says Brexit is good! It's absolutely true if it's written in the Daily Mail!

I'm sure you've heard this song already, but it is worth a listen again to remember how Britain got here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5eBT6OSr1TI

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#412

Post by presidente20 »

thenomad wrote: post #404
nthcolumn wrote: post #352

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe the small matter that every single economic authority on the matter from our foreign allies like Barack Obama, to the IMF, the Bank Of England, the Confederation of British Industry, (and endless list) said it would be an unmitigated disaster... and then there are the people who think it is a good idea... Trump, Putin, Lafarge, Gove, and not even the the PM thought it was a good idea to start off with. Project…

Also, every single study bar one, from credible institutions like the London School Of Economics (and indeed HM Treasury), predicted a significant downswing in the UK economy post-Brexit. The lone study is worth paying attention to. It's from a group calling themselves "Economists For Brexit". It proposes that the UK should, post-Brexit, unilaterally scrap all tariffs. Under those conditions, it predicts a minor rise…

It depends on the timescales of the predicted problems. I believe the studies predicted choppy waters whilst the UK divorces from the EU (short to medium term) which in my view is likely. However that's not the same as saying that leaving the EU is in principle bad for the economy.

Secondly there are plenty of economists that think Brexit will work out fine but that is a somewhat unfashionable view so they keep their heads down. Such is the nature of groupthink.

What is it exactly that you think will cause the UK's economic demise?

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#413

Post by handelaar »

Nursie wrote: post #383
kuschku wrote: post #316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> IIRC the human rights act and membership of the ECHR are separate to the EU. Membership in the EU requires membership in the ECHR, that’s why Britain can only after Brexit go back to the human rights of the 1600s that the elected government wants.

Indeed, EU membership was a lock on ECHR membership. But leaving the EU does noy (yet) mean leaving ECHR.

Leaving the ECHR is however the stated policy of the current UK government, and leaving the EU will allow it to actually do so.

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#414

Post by estel »

djaychela wrote: post #2

I sincerely hope that today (and obviously the day it actually happens) isn't something that I look back on with sadness in the future. I live in the UK, and am really saddened by the way that politics is 'progressing' - in fact, regressing to a time where nationalism seems to be the voice, and one which I think will inevitably lead to conflict. Combined with the Trump situation in the USA, I am extremely pessimistic…

Obviously words are a lot cheaper than action, but it's at least a small consolation that the current Government, for all its varied faults, remains a pretty globalist and free-trade one (despite being responsible for one of the most protectionist and nationalist actions in the last century).

Which is to say that I don't think the nationalist right-wing will be mollified entirely by the exit negotiations. If the UK had the equivalent of a Front Nationale government leading Brexit right now I'd find that much more worrisome.

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#415

Post by thomasahle »

Chaebixi wrote: post #280
Svip wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the EU does have a directly elected parliament? So where's the lack of democracy in the EU?

> But the EU does have a directly elected parliament? So where's the lack of democracy in the EU? I'm not a European, but could it be that the bloc has gotten so large that an individual's vote is so diluted that it feels like it's not a democracy? Especially considering the number of different nationalities and language-groups of various sizes that are supposed to be represented by that one body. I think federalism…

> I think federalism is a good idea because, at the end of the day, I want to be ruled by a government that represents my community, not some abstract mass of people.

What size do you think is the best for a democracy then? 10,000 people? 1000,000? The US is as big as the EU and certainly has a lot more centralized legislation.

So many issues today (taxes, trade, environmental protection, immigration, etc.) involve very large groups of people (if not all people), and so it really makes sense to have a body of representatives from all those people together. Some issues may only affect the local community (however big that is) and so of course the local community can take care of those.

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#416

Post by rayiner »

hiddencost wrote: post #388
rayiner wrote: post #308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's at stake here is more fundamental than federalism: it's self determination. Throughout history, discrete groups have waged wars of independence to ensure that they can have a government that reflects their shared history, culture, and values. My family is from Bangladesh, which fought a war to separate from Pakistan over cultural/linguistic differences. In another example, Israel is engaged in an existential b…

^-- Submarine argument of the current white nationalist movement. Basic flaw: it elides "the wants of white nationalists" with "the culture of the country" and tries to imply that the wants of white nationalists are the only one that exists. A subset of people are being prodded to give up their sovereignty; a significant chunk of folks in the UK actually wanted the EU, most notably immigrants, students, young folks.

That's a myopic and ignorant view. Not all nationalism is "white nationalism," and nationalism is often a strongly positive force. For example, in places like Bangladesh, Egypt, and Turkey, nationalism is the force opposing theocracy. Israeli nationalism has allowed them to carve out a relatively liberal democracy in a region that's hostile to it. (It's also a bizarre charge to level at U.K. nationalism, given that the U.K. is less white than the E.U. as a whole. Moreover, Indians - the largest non-white ethnic group in the U.K. - voted leave/remain along class lines, like whites: http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/international/world...).

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#417

Post by [deleted] »

hiddencost wrote: post #388
rayiner wrote: post #308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's at stake here is more fundamental than federalism: it's self determination. Throughout history, discrete groups have waged wars of independence to ensure that they can have a government that reflects their shared history, culture, and values. My family is from Bangladesh, which fought a war to separate from Pakistan over cultural/linguistic differences. In another example, Israel is engaged in an existential b…

^-- Submarine argument of the current white nationalist movement. Basic flaw: it elides "the wants of white nationalists" with "the culture of the country" and tries to imply that the wants of white nationalists are the only one that exists. A subset of people are being prodded to give up their sovereignty; a significant chunk of folks in the UK actually wanted the EU, most notably immigrants, students, young folks.

[deleted]

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#418

Post by jayess »

thomasahle wrote: post #415
Chaebixi wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But the EU does have a directly elected parliament? So where's the lack of democracy in the EU? I'm not a European, but could it be that the bloc has gotten so large that an individual's vote is so diluted that it feels like it's not a democracy? Especially considering the number of different nationalities and language-groups of various sizes that are supposed to be represented by that one body. I think federalism…

> I think federalism is a good idea because, at the end of the day, I want to be ruled by a government that represents my community, not some abstract mass of people. What size do you think is the best for a democracy then? 10,000 people? 1000,000? The US is as big as the EU and certainly has a lot more centralized legislation. So many issues today (taxes, trade, environmental protection, immigration, etc.) involve v…

My thought is something roughly the size of a large city state, or small regular state. Or the size of a US state. Or whatever the people of an area decide.

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#420

Post by meitham »

afandian wrote: post #396
hiddencost wrote: post #388

Earlier quoted context omitted.

^-- Submarine argument of the current white nationalist movement. Basic flaw: it elides "the wants of white nationalists" with "the culture of the country" and tries to imply that the wants of white nationalists are the only one that exists. A subset of people are being prodded to give up their sovereignty; a significant chunk of folks in the UK actually wanted the EU, most notably immigrants, students, young folks.

As a British citizen I have more in common culturally with my German, Swedish, Austrian, Spanish, Danish, French etc friends and colleagues than I feel with a large chunk of my own country. The people who tell me that I should be patriotic and culturally identify with them as British are the people I'd want to run a million miles from.

I wish I could upvote you 100 times.
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