UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU • Hacker News Board

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#541

Post by dragonwriter » Wed, Mar 29, 2017, 8:35 PM UTC

presidente20 wrote: post #534

rbehrends wrote: post #520

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> On the first point I mean that the policy creators (in this case the Commission) can make any policy of their choosing. The veto-ers (i.e. the European Parliament) can only block the legislation. As the former control what gets debated, they frame the debate and the latter can only react. The Parliament and Council do not just have veto power. The Parliament can in principle replace legislation entirely through ame…

Ok amendments as well as veto, but I think you see the point. It is rare that a member of the Lords is in the Cabinet and it seems reasonable that the Leader of the Lords is from the Lords doesn't it? Again the main point I'm trying to make is that the EU falls short of typical democratic standards which is a reasonably direct connection between the ruled and the rulers. Anything in between is highly subject to crony…

> It is rare that a member of the Lords is in the Cabinet

As GP noted, it is always the case that at least one member of the Lords is in the cabinet, so not rare at all.

More broadly, there have typically been 1-2 Lords in cabinet in most governments of the past several decades (not counting the Leader of the Lords and, before 2005, Lord Chancellor, who always are/were cabinet ministers and members of the Lords.) John Major's government and the 2015- Cameron and May governments were notable in not having any "extra" Lords.

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#542

Post by rbehrends » Wed, Mar 29, 2017, 8:36 PM UTC

presidente20 wrote: post #534

rbehrends wrote: post #520

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> On the first point I mean that the policy creators (in this case the Commission) can make any policy of their choosing. The veto-ers (i.e. the European Parliament) can only block the legislation. As the former control what gets debated, they frame the debate and the latter can only react. The Parliament and Council do not just have veto power. The Parliament can in principle replace legislation entirely through ame…

Ok amendments as well as veto, but I think you see the point. It is rare that a member of the Lords is in the Cabinet and it seems reasonable that the Leader of the Lords is from the Lords doesn't it? Again the main point I'm trying to make is that the EU falls short of typical democratic standards which is a reasonably direct connection between the ruled and the rulers. Anything in between is highly subject to crony…

> It is rare that a member of the Lords is in the Cabinet and it seems reasonable that the Leader of the Lords is from the Lords doesn't it?

I was just fighting literalism with literalism; you and I both know that this isn't what's usually meant when talking about "unelected bureaucrats" (keep also in mind that most prominent MPs are in safe seats where, as the saying goes, you could get a donkey elected on a party ticket). There are plenty of democracies around the world where members of the executive are NOT members of the legislature also and where this is actually discouraged (separation of powers and all that). Members of the executive also being members of the legislature has never been a criterion for a democracy.

> Again the main point I'm trying to make is that the EU falls short of typical democratic standards which is a reasonably direct connection between the ruled and the rulers.

Not sure where you're getting this from. The European Parliament is elected directly by the EU citizens. The Council of the EU comprises members of the governments, which are indirectly elected by EU citizens. The Commission President is chosen as the result of the European Parliament elections (as the candidate of the largest party that can command a majority in the European Parliament). The other Commissioners are proposed by the governments of the member states, again indirectly elected by EU citizens, and are then elected by the European Parliament. The European Parliament can also remove the Commission through a motion of censure (and that's not a paper tiger, it happened before).

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#543

Post by astrodust » Wed, Mar 29, 2017, 8:36 PM UTC

mkaziz wrote: post #537

rayiner wrote: post #504

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And that's going fabulously . Our government is efficient and functional and totally manages to put aside regional differences to address pressing national issues.

It actually is going pretty well. We elected a demagogue and he's as checked and balanced as he can be, given that he has the House and Senate.

I'd give it a solid B+ for the last 240 years. It's only had a single civil war which compared to the last 240 years of Europe is downright amazing!

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#544

Post by gpderetta » Wed, Mar 29, 2017, 8:37 PM UTC

presidente20 wrote: post #412

thenomad wrote: post #404

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, every single study bar one, from credible institutions like the London School Of Economics (and indeed HM Treasury), predicted a significant downswing in the UK economy post-Brexit. The lone study is worth paying attention to. It's from a group calling themselves "Economists For Brexit". It proposes that the UK should, post-Brexit, unilaterally scrap all tariffs. Under those conditions, it predicts a minor rise…

It depends on the timescales of the predicted problems. I believe the studies predicted choppy waters whilst the UK divorces from the EU (short to medium term) which in my view is likely. However that's not the same as saying that leaving the EU is in principle bad for the economy. Secondly there are plenty of economists that think Brexit will work out fine but that is a somewhat unfashionable view so they keep their…

Long term, the UK, or what's left of it, will do fine, as it has for the last thousand year.

Then again, long term we will be all dead.

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#545

Post by golemotron » Wed, Mar 29, 2017, 8:38 PM UTC

ealexhudson wrote: post #3

I'm a big believer in not having assumptions and testing things with actual experiments. This is one experiment I'd rather not be participating in, though. It's difficult to see very much positive about this move; certainly there will be some benefits, but I expect greatly outweighed by the negatives (which will include higher prices, lower employment and probably lower standards for UK workers - the EU has consisten…

> I'm a big believer in not having assumptions and testing things with actual experiments. This is one experiment I'd rather not be participating in, though.

Have you tried flipping that? The EU was an experiment, not the status quo.

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#546

Post by oblio » Wed, Mar 29, 2017, 8:39 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #308

folli wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I absolutely see the advantages of having common standards, tariff agreements etc. to make trade across borders easier (i.e. something akin to the European Economic Area). I'm however also a proponent of federalism, because I believe that for a democracy to truly work it is necessary that the people still feel responsible for their votes and their decisions. This is something which I'm missing in centralised and unit…

What's at stake here is more fundamental than federalism: it's self determination. Throughout history, discrete groups have waged wars of independence to ensure that they can have a government that reflects their shared history, culture, and values. My family is from Bangladesh, which fought a war to separate from Pakistan over cultural/linguistic differences. In another example, Israel is engaged in an existential b…

Nobody's being "prodded". Everyone joined willingly.

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#547

Post by oblio » Wed, Mar 29, 2017, 8:41 PM UTC

794CD01 wrote: post #470

vkou wrote: post #439

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What's at stake here is more fundamental than federalism: it's self determination. Yet, Britain has done its best to deny the same right to self-determination to its subjects. Self-determination seems to be an excuse trotted out to support existing power structures. "We should secede from _____ - but nobody should secede from us." Britain and Ireland, Britain and India, Britain and Scotland... Britain had to be dra…

If anything that just demonstrates the point further. Ireland and India are now independent and are happier for it. Scotland will soon join them. The EU doesn't want Britain to leave. The oppressors and the oppressed do not have the same goals.

The EU is an oppressor, really? Hyperbole, much?

Everyone joined the EU willingly. The fact that they can leave whenever is further proof that the EU is not autocratic.

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#548

Post by random_comment » Wed, Mar 29, 2017, 8:41 PM UTC

Balero wrote: post #532

jwdunne wrote: post #469

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When the majority of Scotland wanted to remain part of the EU, the terms changed. The fact is Scotland, NI and Wales largely wanted to remain whilst England drags the rest along with. They have no choice. That's a pretty big change in the game and wasn't really on people's minds in 2014. I certainly wasn't thinking about the EU exit in 2014. In fact, in 2015, a 2016 EU referendum wasn't widespread knowledge. In fact,…

Wales voted to leave by a large margin.

This is factually untrue.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36612308

Wales voted by a 52.5% to 47.5% margin to leave.

There are very few countries in the world where a non-binding referendum with that kind of margin would be considered a mandate to make a fundamental change to the constitutional basis of the country.

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#549

Post by oblio » Wed, Mar 29, 2017, 8:43 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #504

astrodust wrote: post #493

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "hetrogenous body politic with hundreds of millions of other people with which they share little other than said bureaucracy" Sounds a lot like the USA.

And that's going fabulously . Our government is efficient and functional and totally manages to put aside regional differences to address pressing national issues.

You're still #1 in terms of total GDP and have the highest GDP per capita of any country with a population over 50 million. Don't sell your government short...

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#550

Post by random_comment » Wed, Mar 29, 2017, 8:45 PM UTC

the-dude wrote: post #473

afandian wrote: post #396

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a British citizen I have more in common culturally with my German, Swedish, Austrian, Spanish, Danish, French etc friends and colleagues than I feel with a large chunk of my own country. The people who tell me that I should be patriotic and culturally identify with them as British are the people I'd want to run a million miles from.

Oh, big thanks from The Netherlands!

He didn't actually mention the Dutch ;-)