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Audi's unions demand electric model for main German plant

reuters.com

31–40 of 97 posts

Re: Audi's unions demand electric model for main German plant

#31
post #2

Is it me or unions on Germany are a species of their own kind? I mean I'm expected the union to do strikes to raise salaries, protect laziness and unproductive workers, counter automation and firing of current workers... Edit: I'm not sure why I'm getting down-voted over this.

No, it's American unions that are a species of their own kind.

Re: Audi's unions demand electric model for main German plant

#32
post #9

As a former Audi owner, I wonder if the "audi service position" will be applicable to their electric cars. Tangental I know, but I would be curious to know if they will make their cars easier/cheaper to service. I never really had much trouble with my A4, but maintenance costs upwards of 1k per 6 months(I was driving a lot of miles at the time) turned me off to the ownership experience.

Depends on a lot of factors. There is no engine oil, so the first scheduled maintenance will probably be the cabin airfilter (20000 miles in every car I've had that has one), and I would guess that anything in the suspension that needs grease will get the same interval (many cars have nothing to grease today but it is a possibility). Then there are tires.

Brake pads should last a little longer, but I'm not sure how much.

Ultimately though I believe electric cars will be much more expensive in the long run. Nissan wants $5499 for a new battery back. I don't know of any study on how long they last, but reading forums and extrapolating I would say you should plan on replacing the battery pack every 100000 miles. This of course depends greatly on how your charge it which in turn depends on how far you drive. If you drive the full range of the battery every charge you probably need to replace the battery every 50000 miles. If you make dozens of short trips per day, charging after each, you could potentially get several hundred thousand miles.

I'm curious about your A4 experience - how many miles were you driving. Unless you are driving 80,000 miles a year I don't see how you can get that high - at 80,000 miles/ year you have timing belt service. If you are driving this many miles the VW diesels (same base platform as the A4, though less luxury) can probably pay for the entire car including maintenance just in fuel savings.

Re: Audi's unions demand electric model for main German plant

#33
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many people and organizations with a lot of power have spent a lot of time and money giving you that impression. Unions have done a great deal of good worldwide, but no 'it's Henry Ford that's responsible for the 40 hour week' etc. PS: Remember, the best way to keep power long term is to convince everyone else to hand it to you.

40 hour work week? Unions Weekend off? Unions 9-5? Unions Retirement Savings? Unions Pension Program? Unions Health Benefits? Unions Vacation Time? Unions Sick Time? Unions Lunch break? Unions Work place safety regulations? Unions Boss threaten to fire you if you don't let him screw your wife? Unions

Just a friendly reminder that people had been beaten, shot at, bombed and attacked by the US military for the things you listed.

Employers were not willing to give those concessions without a fight.

Re: Audi's unions demand electric model for main German plant

#34
> but the success of Tesla and arch rival BMW's "i" series of electric cars has convinced Audi there is a market for electric luxury vehicles after all.

Sigh. This better not be what Audi actually thinks. Let me say it as clearly as possible - ALL CARS will be electric vehicles in the future. So if Audi still comes at this from the perspective of "let's build an EV for environmentalist vegan weirdos...and I guess for some eccentric millionaires", then it will always be 5-steps behind Tesla, and it will fail badly in the EV market (as well as in the gas-powered car market, once the decline begins).

Re: Audi's unions demand electric model for main German plant

#35
post #9

As a former Audi owner, I wonder if the "audi service position" will be applicable to their electric cars. Tangental I know, but I would be curious to know if they will make their cars easier/cheaper to service. I never really had much trouble with my A4, but maintenance costs upwards of 1k per 6 months(I was driving a lot of miles at the time) turned me off to the ownership experience.

1k per 6 months of maintenance costs? If you don't mind answering, what kind of maintenance was it that you had to do every 6 months?

Re: Audi's unions demand electric model for main German plant

#36
post #19
post #2

Is it me or unions on Germany are a species of their own kind? I mean I'm expected the union to do strikes to raise salaries, protect laziness and unproductive workers, counter automation and firing of current workers... Edit: I'm not sure why I'm getting down-voted over this.

> Edit: I'm not sure why I'm getting down-voted over this. Because your characterization of unions just sounds like blindly repeating the anti-union propaganda that has been so successful in the US starting from Reagan's time.

Not really, I'm not from the US and I don't know the US history with unions. I'm speaking from practical experience in my country and several other countries where unions where responsible (or a cause) for the collapse of several companies and industries.

Re: Audi's unions demand electric model for main German plant

#37
post #34

> but the success of Tesla and arch rival BMW's "i" series of electric cars has convinced Audi there is a market for electric luxury vehicles after all. Sigh. This better not be what Audi actually thinks. Let me say it as clearly as possible - ALL CARS will be electric vehicles in the future. So if Audi still comes at this from the perspective of "let's build an EV for environmentalist vegan weirdos...and I guess for…

Research before you write. Audi is part of the Volkswagen Group, which consists of VW, Audi, Porsche, Skoda, Seat, Lamborghini, Bentley, Bugatti, Scania, MAN and Ducati. So they all produce for different niches of the Market. The cheap small electrical Vehicle is currently produced by VW, with the e-up!. You must not forget, that the institutional knowledge from the Hybrid Systems used in the LMP1 Class in Le Mans won by Porsche and Audi is huge.

Re: Audi's unions demand electric model for main German plant

#38
post #32
post #9

As a former Audi owner, I wonder if the "audi service position" will be applicable to their electric cars. Tangental I know, but I would be curious to know if they will make their cars easier/cheaper to service. I never really had much trouble with my A4, but maintenance costs upwards of 1k per 6 months(I was driving a lot of miles at the time) turned me off to the ownership experience.

Depends on a lot of factors. There is no engine oil, so the first scheduled maintenance will probably be the cabin airfilter (20000 miles in every car I've had that has one), and I would guess that anything in the suspension that needs grease will get the same interval (many cars have nothing to grease today but it is a possibility). Then there are tires. Brake pads should last a little longer, but I'm not sure how m…

There is a large difference between charging from 70-100% regularly vs 5%-100% regularly. However, while the battery pack seems like a maintenance issue, it's really a question of fuel. In most places your saving 5+k on gas to refuel with electricity, so getting a 5k bill to replace your battery just means there is no real fuel savings.

Re: Audi's unions demand electric model for main German plant

#39
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Electric cars are far from perfect, but the simple fact that they have less moving parts than an ICE vehicle. No fanbelts to stretch, no flywheels to break, no fuel injection pump, etc, etc. Other than normal wear and tear, there should be massively less maintenance required for electric vehicles.

I mean, yes that's probably true for mass market vehicles, but not true for luxury cars. Look at Teslas. Yes, the drivetrain is vastly simplified, but I can't imagine things like those gull wing doors, power door handles, air suspension, etc. will be inexpensive to maintain.

Well I should have clarified I was referring to the engine, which is the part that generally has the most problems over the life of most ICE vehicles.

In the Teslas, there are dramatically fewer moving parts and consumables.

No rings to dry rot / wear out, spark plugs, fan belts, oil filters, pistons, fuel pumps, etc, etc. I was actually referring to the Teslas. I do however, think the X was too much too quickly. It is a mess from an engineering standpoint. That being said, the drive train will last much longer than a similar ICE. I suspect in the long run, with battery wear, it will be a bit more than a wash.

Disclaimer: I'm long on TSLA and Solarcity Solar Bonds.

Re: Audi's unions demand electric model for main German plant

#40
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Electric cars are far from perfect, but the simple fact that they have less moving parts than an ICE vehicle. No fanbelts to stretch, no flywheels to break, no fuel injection pump, etc, etc. Other than normal wear and tear, there should be massively less maintenance required for electric vehicles.

I mean, yes that's probably true for mass market vehicles, but not true for luxury cars. Look at Teslas. Yes, the drivetrain is vastly simplified, but I can't imagine things like those gull wing doors, power door handles, air suspension, etc. will be inexpensive to maintain.

Gull wing doors are about the only thing there that are more complicated than features in other higher end cars. Air suspension's been in luxury cars for several decades, and there are all sorts of complicated locking mechanisms for doors, including pneumatics in various mercedes vehicles. When you start getting into the luxury lines, you start seeing all the added complexity because everyone needs some signature feature to distinguish themselves from just being a nice comfortable ride.
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