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UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

bbc.com

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Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#301

Post by paulajohnson »

Svip wrote: post #181
folli wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I absolutely see the advantages of having common standards, tariff agreements etc. to make trade across borders easier (i.e. something akin to the European Economic Area). I'm however also a proponent of federalism, because I believe that for a democracy to truly work it is necessary that the people still feel responsible for their votes and their decisions. This is something which I'm missing in centralised and unit…

But the EU does have a directly elected parliament? So where's the lack of democracy in the EU?

Much of the work of the EU is done by the European Commission, which consists of one senior appointee from each member state. On one hand this is clearly not particularly democratic, but on the other hand it gives the member governments an avenue to make policy that doesn't go via their population, which is why none of the member governments wants to change it.

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#302

Post by coldtea »

sangnoir wrote: post #256
coldtea wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> where the UK could not make a law that it wanted to because of "having to wait for Brussels"? "Having to wait" not as in actually waiting (e.g. as if Brussels would somehow slow down the pace of law-making in the UK) but in the sense UK will have to be handed down to adopt and enforce EU laws. So, wanting to make a law about X, in the sense that UK citizens see it and to their interests? Tough luck, unless it match…

> "Having to wait" not as in actually waiting (e.g. as if Brussels would somehow slow down the pace of law-making in the UK) but in the sense UK will have to adopt and enforce EU laws There is no definition or synonym of "wait" that matches your attempt to salvage your initial argument.

No salvaging, what I wrote above is already in my initial argument. I'm just clarifying it further in case somebody got confused.

I wrote: "you can make your own laws and not wait for some committee of 20+ countries and some Brussels bureaucrats to decide their "one size fits all solution".

This means that (with the exit) the British people can make their own laws and don't have to wait for EU bureaucrats to make (one size fits all) laws for them.

I'm not a native english speaker but I don't think that makes any difference in this case, as the meaning from the above first comment is quite clear (and can hardly be read in another way).

What exactly do you find difficult to parse, or think that could be read in another way? Care to give us a plausible interpretation of my initial comment that is in a different spirit to my subsequent rephrasing?

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#303

Post by waqf »

martinald wrote: post #281
pluma wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The often cited claim that the EU is undemocratic stems from a difference of opinion what "democratic" actually means. First of all: there is barely any nation that is truly democratic in the historic sense of the word. Most democracies are actually representational systems: citizens don't vote on every single issue, they elect someone to represent them and vote in their name. Who each representative actually represe…

You make good points, but the problem is in most countries knowledge of MEPs is close to nil. Turnout for European Parliament elections is also abysmal, in the UK 35%, NL 37% and even France and Germany are in the low 40s. It would be even lower if other elections weren't tagged along with the EU ones (eg usually the UK has local elections at the same time). There is an enormous amount of voter apathy towards the EU…

I don't think it's fair to blame the voters. If there were influential elections that nobody was voting in, then a few hardcore members of the electorate would see the potential and be all over them.

It seems much more likely that the voters are correctly detecting that the elections are not that important, either because the parliament has insufficient influence on EU policy, or because the candidates have insufficient influence on the parliament's decisions, or because the parties are all as bad as each other.

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#304

Post by vidarh »

Chaebixi wrote: post #285
fredley wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Independence from what? Should England be an Independent state? London? The City of London?

Do those things have identities as independent nations/cultures?

The better question to ask is: Does Britain have identity as a nation?

Various surveys indicates that a lot of people in the UK - across all the constituents parts - see themselves as more English/Welsh/Scottish/Irish than British. Many don't see themselves as British at all (ironically immigrants who have become citizens are far more likely to see themselves as British first than people born here).

The British identity as a single nation is weak and fractured.

Keep in mind that the modern nation state and national identities are barely two centuries old and was largely an artificial construct to begin with, created as part of the romantic nationalism movement, and it has had various degrees of success in different places. In the UK a lot of that identity got built around and tied up in the Empire, and has fractured and gone into decline with the fall of the British Empire.

On top of that, I'd argue that London in many ways does have a distinct culture from the surrounding area. London - especially the centre - is a Labour stronghold in a sea of conservative areas. It voted far more for Remain than the surrounding area, despite a large proportion of the residents of London being unable to vote (seeing as London has a high proportion of non-citizen residents). It's far more immigration friendly, far more multicultural than the surrounding areas.

After the Brexit there has been proposals - some serious, and some not so much - for an independence movement for London. I know some concrete planning has been done. There was real and seething anger in London over the vote - in many areas it was seen as outright betrayal, and evidence that London does not really fit in with most of England. People joked about building a wall around the M25 (freeway circling London).

Now, there's no way there's any sizeable real support for an independent London, but the Brexit vote did plant a seed. We'll see if it grows - if the terms we leave the EU on are bad, and especially if they hit London hard, it very well might start growing. I genuinely think that while it won't get much support, ther likely will be a registered political party arguing for an independent London within the next decade.

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#305

Post by paulajohnson »

sangnoir wrote: post #242
folli wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My point is that the more people feel detached from the political process, the less responsible they feel to take an active part in the process. This is why I believe that a regional government is to be preferred over a centralistic government. I'm aware that not all problems can be solved on a regional level, but those that can, should. This is especially true on a cultural more diverse landscape such as Europe comp…

Is there any that evidence the optimal administrative size for people not to feel "detached from the political process" is at state level? Why not further devolve sovereignty further to the british isles, regions, cities or counties? The absurdity of it all is that the Tories say "It's good to leave the union" when the subject is Brexit, while also saying "It's not good to leave the union" when the subject is Indyref…

The Nordic states are about 5M people each, and they routinely top the score cards for general wellbeing. Some people (who?) have suggested that 5M might be an optimal number.

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#306

Post by nfbush »

mstade wrote: post #276
sangnoir wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there any that evidence the optimal administrative size for people not to feel "detached from the political process" is at state level? Why not further devolve sovereignty further to the british isles, regions, cities or counties? The absurdity of it all is that the Tories say "It's good to leave the union" when the subject is Brexit, while also saying "It's not good to leave the union" when the subject is Indyref…

Not to mention the hypocrisy of voting to remain and then championing the effort to leave. UK politics is so broken right now.

The poll was legally binding, they had to leave. Not that politics isn't broken ofc. EDIT I was wrong

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#307

Post by ktzar »

JamesMcMinn wrote: post #130
krona wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> which will include higher prices Interesting. I was in a UK supermarket the other day and the asparagus on offer was from Spain and Mexico. The Mexican variety was cheaper, and just as good. Currently, Mexico pays a 14.4% common external tariff on this product, and it's still cheaper than what the EU (with it's massive array of agricultural subsidy) can produce. I imagine this is just the tip of the iceberg.

Given that Spain is still recovering from flooding, cold weather and a bunch of other issues [1] that have made growing vegetables impossible in many areas, that's not really a surprise. [1] http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-38666752

That's an article from almost 2 months ago.

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#308

Post by rayiner »

folli wrote: post #154
ealexhudson wrote: post #3

I'm a big believer in not having assumptions and testing things with actual experiments. This is one experiment I'd rather not be participating in, though. It's difficult to see very much positive about this move; certainly there will be some benefits, but I expect greatly outweighed by the negatives (which will include higher prices, lower employment and probably lower standards for UK workers - the EU has consisten…

I absolutely see the advantages of having common standards, tariff agreements etc. to make trade across borders easier (i.e. something akin to the European Economic Area). I'm however also a proponent of federalism, because I believe that for a democracy to truly work it is necessary that the people still feel responsible for their votes and their decisions. This is something which I'm missing in centralised and unit…

What's at stake here is more fundamental than federalism: it's self determination. Throughout history, discrete groups have waged wars of independence to ensure that they can have a government that reflects their shared history, culture, and values. My family is from Bangladesh, which fought a war to separate from Pakistan over cultural/linguistic differences. In another example, Israel is engaged in an existential battle to ensure the existence of a sovereign nation for its people.

In Europe, exactly the opposite is happening. People are being prodded to give up their sovereignty to a supra-national bureaucracy, and to be assimilated into a hetrogenous body politic with hundreds of millions of other people with which they share little other than said bureaucracy. People in the U.K. were very rightfully afraid of what that could lead to and decided they wanted to get off that train.

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#309

Post by vidarh »

coldtea wrote: post #293
untog wrote: post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's about like-minded people sharing a common culture (as developed historically up to some point) But it's that "some point" that makes everything wishy washy. If I'm in favour of Scottish independence I cite common Scottish culture. If I'm in favour of the UK I cite the hundreds of years of shared culture. If I'm in favour of the EU I cite decades of shared culture. None of these are wrong, despite being in clea…

> But it's that "some point" that makes everything wishy washy. If I'm in favour of Scottish independence I cite common Scottish culture. If I'm in favour of the UK I cite the hundreds of years of shared culture. If I'm in favour of the EU I cite decades of shared culture. None of these are wrong, despite being in clear disagreement with each other. Well, it's up to what the majority likes. Everything is wishy-washy…

Majorities often shift, and depend on other changes. E.g. Brexit probably means the end of the UK as we know it - it substantially increased the odds of Scottish independence, as England is far more right wing, but have been held in check by EU law. It may even mean a unified Ireland, as there's been a solid shift towards the Republican side in Stormont, and even some unionists seem to be disillusioned by how the concerns of Northern Ireland gets ignored at Westminster.

Meanwhile London has demanded more devolved powers (partly because Manchester recently got lots of power devolved). More demands will follow.

The UK has been fracturing since the way it was created, and the cracks are getting deeper and deeper, and Brexit looks set to accelerate that process sharply.

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#310

Post by sangnoir »

coldtea wrote: post #302
sangnoir wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Having to wait" not as in actually waiting (e.g. as if Brussels would somehow slow down the pace of law-making in the UK) but in the sense UK will have to adopt and enforce EU laws There is no definition or synonym of "wait" that matches your attempt to salvage your initial argument.

No salvaging, what I wrote above is already in my initial argument. I'm just clarifying it further in case somebody got confused. I wrote: "you can make your own laws and not wait for some committee of 20+ countries and some Brussels bureaucrats to decide their "one size fits all solution". This means that (with the exit) the British people can make their own laws and don't have to wait for EU bureaucrats to make (on…

> "Having to wait" not as in actually waiting..

is self-contradicting or is a redefinition of a commonly used, rather straightforward word to suit your purposes.

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