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UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

bbc.com

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Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#281

Post by martinald »

pluma wrote: post #246
Svip wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the EU does have a directly elected parliament? So where's the lack of democracy in the EU?

The often cited claim that the EU is undemocratic stems from a difference of opinion what "democratic" actually means. First of all: there is barely any nation that is truly democratic in the historic sense of the word. Most democracies are actually representational systems: citizens don't vote on every single issue, they elect someone to represent them and vote in their name. Who each representative actually represe…

You make good points, but the problem is in most countries knowledge of MEPs is close to nil. Turnout for European Parliament elections is also abysmal, in the UK 35%, NL 37% and even France and Germany are in the low 40s.

It would be even lower if other elections weren't tagged along with the EU ones (eg usually the UK has local elections at the same time).

There is an enormous amount of voter apathy towards the EU democratic processes. That starts IMO reducing the democratic legitimacy of the whole thing.

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#282

Post by themihai »

cmdkeen wrote: post #129
themihai wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, you didn't see a war between Germany and England though... Bosnia, Iraq etc were not part of the EU. The point was to create a closely integrated Europe so that war would become unthinkable just like a war between England and Scotland is unthinkable now. Of course it was nationalism which caused conflicts in Europe. Did democracy prevent Russia to invade Ukraine? UK simply decided the European project is not wo…

I'd argue we didn't see a war between Germany and England, or Britain as we are these days, as we were occupying them in the aftermath until 1949 and maintained a British Army of the Rhine there until 1994. The Allies also established a new Constitution and political consensus that is vehemently anti-war - witness German reluctance to be involved in fighting in recent NATO and other coalition conflicts. There's also…

A military alliance (such NATO) alone cannot prevent war between its members. The recent events(Trump threating to pull U.S. support or Turkey's behaviour) proves how fragile a such alliance is. I wouldn't be surprised to see Turkey leaving NATO and join an alliance with Russia.

If a member decides that the alliance doesn't serve its national interests anymore nothing can stop it from leaving and joining a different alliance.

The point of EU was to make european interests indistingusible from national interests. It seems it hit a brick wall on UK.

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#283

Post by lurker456 »

mattmanser wrote: post #145
dustinmoris wrote: post #51

I'm a bit tired of reading doomsday messages by now. I am an European living and working in the UK and even though this affects me I have no reason to believe that things will go downwards now. If there's anything I've learned so far then that every analysis I've read couldn't have been more wrong. It almost seems like the more the UK economy doesn't collapse the more people shout even louder how bad the Brexit is. M…

It doesn't help the EU is acting like a petulant wronged partner. We didn't even cheat on you! I mean, seriously, £68 billion for stuff we're not going to be able to use? Grow up and rework your budget. No trade negotiations until we leave? It makes them look like utter fools, one dose of actual democracy deciding they've had enough of backdoor federalisation and they're threatening every punishment they can think of…

As a collective, you voted to leave. Now Junker et al represent the interests of the remaining members, of which you are no longer a part. Game theory dictactes that the EU must offer unfavorable terms to leavers.

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#284

Post by te_chris »

djmobley wrote: post #229
lostboys67 wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not of the total electorate almost 30% did not vote passing major constitutional changes on such a small majority is counter to all custom and practice - A local Allotment society would not pass a rule change like this.

Turnout was amongst the highest for any vote in recent history. What do you propose? Compulsory voting? Many were genuinely undecided and made a conscious decision to abstain.

Not holding stupid, vague referendums with a mere 50% majority requirement, instead of a supermajority, that can trigger major, complex constitutional changes would be a start.

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#285

Post by Chaebixi »

fredley wrote: post #60
ForRealsies wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The EU is a novelty in human history. The desire for independence, for better or worse, is human nature.

Independence from what? Should England be an Independent state? London? The City of London?

Do those things have identities as independent nations/cultures?

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#286

Post by lostboys67 »

djmobley wrote: post #229
lostboys67 wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not of the total electorate almost 30% did not vote passing major constitutional changes on such a small majority is counter to all custom and practice - A local Allotment society would not pass a rule change like this.

Turnout was amongst the highest for any vote in recent history. What do you propose? Compulsory voting? Many were genuinely undecided and made a conscious decision to abstain.

2/3 or 75% majority which Is the standard for major changes

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#287

Post by krona »

JamesMcMinn wrote: post #241
krona wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the UK's largest supermarket chain, so this it's hardly anecdotal evidence; What I said is verifiable, and doesn't rely on my own witness account. Meanwhile, a statement like My weekly supermarket bill has been going up since the Brexit vote is completely meaningless.

> anecdotal: not necessarily true or reliable, because based on personal accounts rather than facts or research. By definition, it is anecdotal. A single piece of price data observed only by you with no evidence is not proof that EU grown vegetables are more expensive than those from Mexico. To say that someones supermarket bill going up is somehow more anecdotal than "I found asparagus from Spain that cost more than…

I'm providing empirical evidence of a verifiable claim that is either true or false. You can argue about the rigorousness of the claim, but regardless it can be independently verified.

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#288

Post by vidarh »

ForRealsies wrote: post #32
ealexhudson wrote: post #3

I'm a big believer in not having assumptions and testing things with actual experiments. This is one experiment I'd rather not be participating in, though. It's difficult to see very much positive about this move; certainly there will be some benefits, but I expect greatly outweighed by the negatives (which will include higher prices, lower employment and probably lower standards for UK workers - the EU has consisten…

The EU is a novelty in human history. The desire for independence, for better or worse, is human nature.

I'd say the desire to build empires is a far more dominant part of human history than fights for independence.

As for novelty, apart from drawing parallels to the establishment of the US, consider also the African Union.

The African Union includes every country on the African continent - 55 of them (as of Morocco joining/rejoining in January), and includes far more people, and is on a course towards similar levels of integration, with several free trade areas established and gradually coalescing, and several monetary unions being used to gradually pare down the number of currencies with the goal of a single African currency.

It has a long way to go to reach EU level integration, but considering how bad their starting point was (starting, in the form of the OAU with a continent that still had numerous wars and civil wars and independence struggles), what they've achieved is quite impressive.

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#289

Post by Angostura »

martinald wrote: post #281
pluma wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The often cited claim that the EU is undemocratic stems from a difference of opinion what "democratic" actually means. First of all: there is barely any nation that is truly democratic in the historic sense of the word. Most democracies are actually representational systems: citizens don't vote on every single issue, they elect someone to represent them and vote in their name. Who each representative actually represe…

You make good points, but the problem is in most countries knowledge of MEPs is close to nil. Turnout for European Parliament elections is also abysmal, in the UK 35%, NL 37% and even France and Germany are in the low 40s. It would be even lower if other elections weren't tagged along with the EU ones (eg usually the UK has local elections at the same time). There is an enormous amount of voter apathy towards the EU…

Odd isn't it. In the UK, people are so apathetic about the EU that they won't bother voting and so exercised by the EU that they want to leave.

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#290

Post by g_k_chesterton »

mpweiher wrote: post #141
louisswiss wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Kensington High Street for the inhabitants of Kensington High Street!

You can keep your stinkin' High Street. We Chesterton Roadies don't want any part of it!

"Do you really mean that you are -- God help me! -- a Notting Hill patriot; that you are --?"

  from The Napoleon of Notting Hill
https://books.google.com/books?id=KajPAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA111
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