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Why is this little construction crane illegal in New York City? (2016)

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Re: Why is this little construction crane illegal in New York City? (2016)

#131

Post by brudgers »

marcosdumay wrote: post #88
djrogers wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Kiiiinnnnda. People make bad decisions You can't outlaw bad decisions - but it seems that some people will never get tired of trying...

Construction codes are all about outlawing bad decisions. Of course, those are "bad" decisions that save a few penny from the builders, and stay hidden until they surprise the building owner with a huge unpredictable cost. No water lines to urinals fits that descriptions nicely.

As they say:

  Built to code == the worst construction that is legal

Re: Why is this little construction crane illegal in New York City? (2016)

#132

Post by bobbington »

wfo wrote: post #46
jakelarkin wrote: post #7

This is sort of like how when the waterless urinal was first commercialized, the plumbers union blocked it from getting approved in the general building code. Eventually a compromised was reached that involves requiring a plumber to draw an water line (unutilized) to every water-less install. Unions for skilled, high-pay jobs in highly regulated industries really extract a lot of questionable value from society.

Well, that's exactly the point. Just as corporations extract questionable value from society on behalf of their owning structure, unions extract questionable value from society on behalf of the workers. They are a similar-in-kind counterweight to corporate power, so it stands to reason they do similar things. As it turns out in capitalism "extracting questionable value from society and taking it for yourself" is real…

The problem is not unions or corporations per se, but when the government intervenes to unfairly benefit them.

Re: Why is this little construction crane illegal in New York City? (2016)

#133

Post by a_puppy »

ahoy wrote: post #49
jakelarkin wrote: post #7

This is sort of like how when the waterless urinal was first commercialized, the plumbers union blocked it from getting approved in the general building code. Eventually a compromised was reached that involves requiring a plumber to draw an water line (unutilized) to every water-less install. Unions for skilled, high-pay jobs in highly regulated industries really extract a lot of questionable value from society.

Union acts in it's member's interests: "Terrible, we shouldn't allow this". Corporation acts in it's own interests: "Well you can't blame them for that".

I tend to think that monopolies are bad, whether corporations or unions. Local 14 is trying to be a monopoly.

One of the best arguments I've heard for unions [0] is that a negotiation between workers and companies is usually very lopsided: a company can afford for an employee to quit, but a worker often cannot afford to get fired. A union is powerful enough to negotiate equally with companies. But in the case of Local 14, it seems like the power is actually lopsided in the other direction: Local 14 can afford to boycott one particular construction project, but the building developers can't afford to go without cranes.

[0] https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/02/22/repost-the-non-liberta... (see section 2.5)

Re: Why is this little construction crane illegal in New York City? (2016)

#134

Post by JBReefer »

ahoy wrote: post #49
jakelarkin wrote: post #7

This is sort of like how when the waterless urinal was first commercialized, the plumbers union blocked it from getting approved in the general building code. Eventually a compromised was reached that involves requiring a plumber to draw an water line (unutilized) to every water-less install. Unions for skilled, high-pay jobs in highly regulated industries really extract a lot of questionable value from society.

Union acts in it's member's interests: "Terrible, we shouldn't allow this". Corporation acts in it's own interests: "Well you can't blame them for that".

This is whataboutism. Both are bad, and holding the opinion that rent seeking is bad is logically consistent with condemning both action classes.

Re: Why is this little construction crane illegal in New York City? (2016)

#135

Post by tombone12 »

Dylan16807 wrote: post #112
Frondo wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mentally swapped "corporations" out for "unions" in your sentence and it reads just as well. I consider it a credit to the anti-union propagandists that we're all so quick to discard one of the very few tools we laborers have to better our lot in life.

Criticizing is not discarding. I will happily criticize both unions and corporations, and I don't think we should get rid of either concept.

No parent comment criticizing unions does it without the implication that they shouldn't exist. This is most easily seen by the total absence of any mention of a specific union, thus direction the objections towards the concept itself rather than any specific version of it.

Re: Why is this little construction crane illegal in New York City? (2016)

#136

Post by [deleted] »

ChristianBundy wrote: post #78
Zach_the_Lizard wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's the unions. On my way to work, I pass by a giant inflatable rat inflated by a gas motor that's hauled around by a truck. It's rather annoying when its tail gets loose and covers the sidewalk, as can happen on windy days when it's not tied down appropriately. It's probably 10 or 12 feet tall, at least, and the tail is maybe 12 feet long or longer. (3 feet is about one meter for those in metric land). It's parked…

Here's what Scabby The Rat looks like, for those who are unfamiliar: http://www.bigskyballoons.com/ratpack.html

[deleted]

Re: Why is this little construction crane illegal in New York City? (2016)

#137

Post by pbreit »

thekevan wrote: post #39
dzdt wrote: post #25

The New York Department of Buildings response to this article (June 2016) : Skypicker presented the department with plans for a small, truck-mounted crane... However, when we inspected the Skypicker in use at a construction site, we found something significantly different: The crane was attached to a building slab, and appeared to be a hodgepodge of parts from other cranes, mounted on a homemade, untested base. http:…

True, but remember this is New York City. In the original article, when the crane was first used on jobs and word got around about it being less expensive and required fewer operator man hours, his job sites were picketed by unions. There were anonymous calls to 311 reporting violations but when the inspectors got there, they didn't find anything wrong. In my mind, I'm skeptical and it could have been the cranes or i…

Why are they now sitting dormant instead of being used elsewhere?

Re: Why is this little construction crane illegal in New York City? (2016)

#138

Post by walshemj »

mypalmike wrote: post #72
Houshalter wrote: post #38

The first subway in New York City cost about $100 million per kilometer in 1900 (adjusted for inflation of course). The new subway line being opened this year cost $2.2 billion per kilometer. This is despite over a century of improvements in technology. Here's an interesting HN post, "Forty Percent of the Buildings in Manhattan Could Not Be Built Today" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11736696 In that article is…

A big difference in subway costs is that subways used to be built by closing roadways and digging from above ("cut and cover"). But now it's almost always done by very slow, very expensive to operate underground boring machines.

And a lot of ultra cheap semi expendable navvies

Re: Why is this little construction crane illegal in New York City? (2016)

#139

Post by vonmoltke »

rsync wrote: post #114

"In April 2014, City Councilman Ben Kallos, who received $2,500 over two elections from Local 14, introduced new legislation to prohibit climber cranes like the Skypicker from being classified as mobile cranes. The rule would treat the Skypicker like a tower crane, requiring it to carry more insurance and have a Class A operator." Wow. So, for the price of a laptop I could influence NYC politics and have a councilman…

People pay too much attention to the money. He wasn't "bought" with the $2500, he was "bought" with the guaranteed votes from union members for supporting it.

Re: Why is this little construction crane illegal in New York City? (2016)

#140

Post by ezequiel-garzon »

ChristianBundy wrote: post #78
Zach_the_Lizard wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's the unions. On my way to work, I pass by a giant inflatable rat inflated by a gas motor that's hauled around by a truck. It's rather annoying when its tail gets loose and covers the sidewalk, as can happen on windy days when it's not tied down appropriately. It's probably 10 or 12 feet tall, at least, and the tail is maybe 12 feet long or longer. (3 feet is about one meter for those in metric land). It's parked…

Here's what Scabby The Rat looks like, for those who are unfamiliar: http://www.bigskyballoons.com/ratpack.html

Thank you! It's late where I live, English is not my native language and I was certain I was misreading all the nouns... but I wasn't! Amazing stuff.
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