Why is this little construction crane illegal in New York City? (2016) • Hacker News Board

Re: Why is this little construction crane illegal in New York City? (2016)

#111

Post by Frondo » Mon, Mar 27, 2017, 10:18 PM UTC

crusso wrote: post #99

wfo wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, that's exactly the point. Just as corporations extract questionable value from society on behalf of their owning structure, unions extract questionable value from society on behalf of the workers. They are a similar-in-kind counterweight to corporate power, so it stands to reason they do similar things. As it turns out in capitalism "extracting questionable value from society and taking it for yourself" is real…

But where corporate power with labor is scoped to each specific corporation, union power often crosses to many corporations, often even crossing to different industries. Many industries have needlessly suffered and died at the hands of overpowered unions. Capitalism rarely extracts questionable value from society, and when it does it's normally the result of government interference in an industry in order to advantag…

Wow! Many industries have "suffered and died" at the hands of unions? That is an amazing claim.

Re: Why is this little construction crane illegal in New York City? (2016)

#112

Post by Dylan16807 » Mon, Mar 27, 2017, 10:18 PM UTC

Frondo wrote: post #110

unethical_ban wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Consider that unions are great in theory and in many circumstances have proven themselves corrupt to the core in practice.

I mentally swapped "corporations" out for "unions" in your sentence and it reads just as well. I consider it a credit to the anti-union propagandists that we're all so quick to discard one of the very few tools we laborers have to better our lot in life.

Criticizing is not discarding. I will happily criticize both unions and corporations, and I don't think we should get rid of either concept.

Re: Why is this little construction crane illegal in New York City? (2016)

#113

Post by viraptor » Mon, Mar 27, 2017, 10:19 PM UTC

Retra wrote: post #91

djrogers wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Kiiiinnnnda. People make bad decisions You can't outlaw bad decisions - but it seems that some people will never get tired of trying...

You can outlaw bad decisions. That's the whole point of laws.

I thought law is about forbidding harmful decisions, not bad ones? (At least in theory) Most of the stupid things you do to yourself, without affecting others are not regulated.

Re: Why is this little construction crane illegal in New York City? (2016)

#114

Post by rsync » Mon, Mar 27, 2017, 10:22 PM UTC

"In April 2014, City Councilman Ben Kallos, who received $2,500 over two elections from Local 14, introduced new legislation to prohibit climber cranes like the Skypicker from being classified as mobile cranes. The rule would treat the Skypicker like a tower crane, requiring it to carry more insurance and have a Class A operator."

Wow. So, for the price of a laptop I could influence NYC politics and have a councilman of my very own ?

I don't even live in New York and it's still tempting, if only for the lulz.

Do you think Mr. Kallos would pull me in a rickshaw when I visit ? Or would I need an extra fifty bucks ?

Re: Why is this little construction crane illegal in New York City? (2016)

#115

Post by ryandvm » Mon, Mar 27, 2017, 10:24 PM UTC

jakelarkin wrote: post #7

This is sort of like how when the waterless urinal was first commercialized, the plumbers union blocked it from getting approved in the general building code. Eventually a compromised was reached that involves requiring a plumber to draw an water line (unutilized) to every water-less install. Unions for skilled, high-pay jobs in highly regulated industries really extract a lot of questionable value from society.

This is the kind of stuff that makes me chuckle every time someone suggests a software developers union.

Re: Why is this little construction crane illegal in New York City? (2016)

#116

Post by CPLX » Mon, Mar 27, 2017, 10:24 PM UTC

unethical_ban wrote: post #102

CPLX wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Though it's possible that you're correct on this specific issue, you've offered absolutely no support for your argument. Consider the possibility that the strong streak of instinctive union bashing that you see in typical professional class culture in the U.S. is very much the creation of decades of aggressive PR effort by those who consider unions threatening.

Consider that unions are great in theory and in many circumstances have proven themselves corrupt to the core in practice.

Re: Why is this little construction crane illegal in New York City? (2016)

#117

Post by linkregister » Mon, Mar 27, 2017, 10:27 PM UTC

arjie wrote: post #107

frgtpsswrdlame wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course! Unions are a way to balance the scales against corporations. Controlling the supply of labor is very important if you want the wages to be at all decent. But the parent is right that anything questionable done by unions is labored over and repeated again and again and again and again while corporations (for the most part) don't face the same scrutiny.

Of course, and I wonder how equitable this control will be. Will it let the guy with the skill do it or will it be the friend of the union president? Able-bodied men and women don't have jobs in America and you want a 'decent' wage floor of 150k for the chosen ones. Trade unions, the supposed bulwark of the left. Worker's rights, etc. I fully expect people to support all this, have the unions endorse the Democrats, a…

Who is expecting a $150k wage floor?

Edit: the union mentioned in the article. (I hadn't read it).

It appears you're generalizing this union to represent other unions. It's possible for one union to be exploitative while other ones to have merit. Just as some corporations behave responsibly while a few others blatantly disregard consumers and workers.

Re: Why is this little construction crane illegal in New York City? (2016)

#118

Post by viraptor » Mon, Mar 27, 2017, 10:28 PM UTC

RangerScience wrote: post #35

atom-morgan wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And when people advocate for programmers unionizing, I don't see why we'd be any different. There'd be people employed doing X, a programmer would make something to automate X, and "our" union would be trying to save their job.

This is like when people talk about the AI. The AI will do this, the AI will do that... The AI doesn't exist. People will make it. That is when you know what it will do. If we make the union, we can make plenty of reasons and ways for it to be different. Whether or not those result in a difference, is not very predictable. Our day jab is literally understanding, predicting, and building complex systems out of ideas.…

1. Organisation is created with good ideas. 2. Politically motivated or terrible at management and long term view people get to the top of organisation. 3. That organisation now protects the status quo, even though it's in everybody's interest to move on.

Tell me you've never seen this story... I've worked with managers who would absolutely go for hiring more people to continuously do the same stupid task rather than improving the process. If they were protected, it would be a very sad place to work.

Re: Why is this little construction crane illegal in New York City? (2016)

#119

Post by tempestn » Mon, Mar 27, 2017, 10:28 PM UTC

x0x0 wrote: post #83

djrogers wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about the flip side of it - someone wants to put in a few waterless urinals someplace where they can't run water line, and the alternative is no urinals at all? You've literally outlawed a portion of the utility of the invention.

That's disgusting and unsanitary: no water == no sink.

Outhouses don't have sinks and are pretty common. A hand sanitizer dispenser would do the job.

Re: Why is this little construction crane illegal in New York City? (2016)

#120

Post by natosaichek » Mon, Mar 27, 2017, 10:29 PM UTC

x0x0 wrote: post #83

djrogers wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about the flip side of it - someone wants to put in a few waterless urinals someplace where they can't run water line, and the alternative is no urinals at all? You've literally outlawed a portion of the utility of the invention.

That's disgusting and unsanitary: no water == no sink.

Ever used an outhouse? or been to a concert or event venue with portable hand-wash units?