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David Rockefeller has died

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Re: David Rockefeller has died

#141

Post by kbenson »

rosser wrote: post #128
kbenson wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. What do you call the the person who graduated from SEAL training at the bottom of their class? A SEAL. I get the joke, but part of the point is that top and bottom of the class are only relevant for those who actually graduate, and who is capable of graduating can be entirely different based on the goals of the institution. From "everyone can, with work" as in High School, to "only those who are good enough" as (h…

There's a pretty staggering breadth of admissions requirements for the various accredited medical schools in the US, and plenty of offshore schools that effectively will take anyone — basically MD mills. The Dominican Republic, in particular, is well-known for this. (Yes, many of the offshore medical schools are LCME-accredited and legit, and have trained some fantastic physicians, but broadly speaking, they're takin…

Sure, I'm not really arguing that all medical schools have sterling reputations or high standards, just that the joke, as a way to illustrate the problem, unfortunately obscures the real problem. It's pithy and punchy, which makes it good joke and easy to repeat. It's sort of a peeve of mine when I see well intentioned but slightly misleading memes propagate. They're hard to fight for the same reason they are memes.

Re: David Rockefeller has died

#142

Post by gph »

Florin_Andrei wrote: post #127
gph wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But you're describing some kind of theoretical ideal world. We don't live in that world. No one has found a good mechanism for controlling inequality within their own borders and/or ethnic group that scales to anything beyond the size of a village. Yea domination by elites and globalization don't theoretically have to occur together. But looking at history and the current state of the world... what do you think is mo…

> But you're describing some kind of theoretical ideal world. We don't live in that world. Everything is "theoretical" and "ideal" and "impossible" before it actually happens. Electronic computers were an impossibility to James Watt era engineers. Steam engines were an impossibility to the architects of the Parthenon. Raising large stone edifices was an impossibility to hunter-gatherers roaming the savanna. Yet all t…

So you're telling me I should support TPP, globalization efforts, and the subsequent concentration of economic and political power because you have a good feeling that humanity is heading in the right direction and we can invent some effective control on inequality because nothing is impossible the same way we invented the electronic computer?

Re: David Rockefeller has died

#143

Post by ravitation »

reckoner2 wrote: post #120
ravitation wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A question out of pure ignorance: the parent comment was speaking on David Rockefeller, did he (David Rockefeller) treat philanthropy in the same way (not just superficially) as his grandfather?

I'm ignorant about David Rockefeller as well. And it may be right to criticize David. But the parent comment was actually talking about events related to John D. Rockefeller's philanthropy, not David's. John D. Rockefeller did not pass on his wealth to his Son, let alone his grandson until after the events mentioned. edit: for example: David was not even born when the Flexner report was released.

I'm not actually sure what the overall point of the parent comment actually is, since he start's with David's timeline and then cites the reduction in medical schools related to Simon and Abraham Flexner, but doesn't actually delve into why Osteopathic medicine survived the medical education reform, or into John D. Rockefeller's support for Osteopathic medicine in general.

So, while I see the implication, the parent never actually makes that implication explicit.

Either way, I think it's important to separate the actions of the grandson and grandfather.

Re: David Rockefeller has died

#144

Post by unityByFreedom »

rayiner wrote: post #122
unityByFreedom wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well that was the Westphalian agreement. We're sovereign states and can operate as we see fit. If international policy has some impact on our domestic policy -- so be it. Much the same as we have free will and are also impacted by our environment. There are people in places who are happy with the way things are, and people in other places who wouldn't like it that way.

I don't think I understand your point at all. How do you preserve modern European welfare states in the face of globalization?

My point is it's their choice to run their country the way they want. I don't think anyone can say for certain whether certain social programs will be sustainable or not.

The US has many social programs, social security, subsidies, etc. People have been saying for years that these are unsustainable. The national debt has been an issue since founding 250 years ago. Some feel it weakens us. Others feel it ensures we maintain friendly relationships with neighbors.

If there were a major war right now, and the US were unable to defend its allies, the value of the dollar would tank. That keeps us and our allies concerned about each other's safety. I think that's a good thing, so long as we don't tank our economy in doing so.

Re: David Rockefeller has died

#145

Post by toyg »

johansch wrote: post #32
teslabox wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the article: > Rockefeller upheld the family’s philanthropic tradition, giving away more than $900 million during his lifetime. In 1940, he joined the board of the Rockefeller Institute for Medical Research, established in 1901 by his grandfather, and a decade later succeeded his father as board chairman, serving for 25 years. Rich people don't give money away no-strings-attached, they channel it for their purpo…

> Rockefeller upheld the family’s philanthropic tradition, giving away more than $900 million during his lifetime. https://www.forbes.com/sites/carlodonnell/2014/07/11/the-roc... "That young man was John Davison Rockefeller in 1855, who in 25 years would become the wealthiest man of his time, and arguably the wealthiest in history, reigning over a monopoly that refined as much as 90 percent of America’s oil. His flag…

To be fair, in Europe we pay more exactly because we recognise that, if left to their own benevolence, the rich will never pay enough.

(And, the guy donated in addition to paying his fair share of taxes, one would hope. At one point, pre-Reagan, US taxes on wealth were as high as in Europe, possibly even higher).

Re: David Rockefeller has died

#146

Post by evgen »

johansch wrote: post #137
dsacco wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're talking about net worth. You're talking about income. Kind of silly either way though - why don't you just come out and say that you think he should have donated more?

No, I prefer just to point out the hypocrisy surrounding getting acclaims for "philantrophy" in the US. Seems like even those who have the most give out back less to others than they would have done just by the regular taxation laws, living in a typical European country.

Then you should make yourself aware of the regular taxation laws in force at the time those fortunes were amassed.

The difference I guess is that in the US the rich give away most of their money (often for favorable tax treatment on the remainder of their estate) and in Europe they just pass it along to their children to maintain the nominal level of Eurotrash the world seems to require.

Re: David Rockefeller has died

#147

Post by henrikschroder »

TheAdamAndChe wrote: post #133
Florin_Andrei wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> i don't think inequality can be solved by globalization. No, it's the other way'round. On the way to globalization, we need to make sure inequality stays within reasonable levels, otherwise the whole thing will fail.

Globalization is the exploitation of the lower standard of living in other areas. The reason corporations ship jobs overseas is because it's cheap. This in no way controls inequality, and in fact makes it worse.

Globalization has caused the largest transfer of wealth from rich countries to poor countries in the history of mankind, reducing inequality between countries on an unprecedented scale.

Re: David Rockefeller has died

#148

Post by henrikschroder »

rayiner wrote: post #122
unityByFreedom wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well that was the Westphalian agreement. We're sovereign states and can operate as we see fit. If international policy has some impact on our domestic policy -- so be it. Much the same as we have free will and are also impacted by our environment. There are people in places who are happy with the way things are, and people in other places who wouldn't like it that way.

I don't think I understand your point at all. How do you preserve modern European welfare states in the face of globalization?

By moving up the value chain, by educating your own population so that they can perform skilled labour that can't be outsourced.

Re: David Rockefeller has died

#149

Post by Lordarminius »

rosser wrote: post #78
intended wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>When Flexner researched his report, many American medical schools were "proprietary", namely small trade schools owned by one or more doctors, unaffiliated with a college or university, and run to make a profit. A degree was typically awarded after only two years of study. Laboratory work and dissection were not necessarily required. Many of the instructors were local doctors teaching part-time, whose own training l…

> I mean, that's why we trust doctors, because the bar is that high. Two thoughts: 1. The old joke, "What do you call the person who graduated from medical school at the bottom of their class?" "Doctor." 2. The ordeal of residency isn't about setting the bar "high", nearly so much as it's about, "well, I went through this shit, so you have to, too". (Source: I have several doctor friends. All of them think it's bulls…

> Two thoughts...

"What do you call the person who graduated from medical school at the bottom of their class?"

What do you call an engineer who graduated from the bottom of their class?

The ordeal of residency isn't about setting the bar "high", nearly so much as it's about, "well, I went through this shit, so you have to, too". (Source: I have several doctor friends.

Medical doctors are trained to exhibit a level of competence. The 'bootcamp' approach is what we know at the present time to work best. Is it easy? No. Is it pretty? No. Do you have a better suggestion? ___

All of them think it's bullshit

All of them is still a small percentage of doctors.

(Frankly this argument is old and stale. Anyone who has a better plan for training doctors should speak up instead of rehashing it)

Re: David Rockefeller has died

#150

Post by macspoofing »

teslabox wrote: post #26
kolanos wrote: post #4

"Some even believe we [Rockefeller family] are part of a secret cabal working against the best interests of the United States, characterizing my family and me as 'internationalists' and of conspiring with others around the world to build a more integrated global political and economic structure -- One World, if you will. If that's the charge, I stand guilty, and I am proud of it." - David Rockefeller, Memoirs, page 4…

From the article: > Rockefeller upheld the family’s philanthropic tradition, giving away more than $900 million during his lifetime. In 1940, he joined the board of the Rockefeller Institute for Medical Research, established in 1901 by his grandfather, and a decade later succeeded his father as board chairman, serving for 25 years. Rich people don't give money away no-strings-attached, they channel it for their purpo…

>Rich people don't give money away no-strings-attached..

Why not?

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