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Everyone loves Bernie Sanders. Except, it seems, the Democratic party

theguardian.com

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Re: Everyone loves Bernie Sanders. Except, it seems, the Democratic party

#71

Post by maxerickson »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #54
akhilcacharya wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does that square with the millions more votes Hillary won? It is really bizarre. She's said to be an awful politician, yet won the popular vote in '08, and in '16 during the primaries and general.

The DNC excluded independent voters in several states during primaries, independent voters they needed to win the general. The voters she won in the primary were not the voters she needed to win. Oops. EDIT: @akhilcacharya: Why expect independents to vote for your candidate if the party doesn't give them a say in the nominee? You want your cake and eating it too, and hence, you lose.

States decide whether to have open or closed primaries, not parties within the state or national parties.

Re: Everyone loves Bernie Sanders. Except, it seems, the Democratic party

#72

Post by HoppedUpMenace »

mcbruiser1 wrote: post #53
eli_gottlieb wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see the Republican Party championing anything for the working class but death. http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/432796/working-class-wh...

how about bringing back manufacturing jobs for a start? how about deregulation so employers can hire more people? how about lowering taxes? how about enforcing legal immigration so that working class people stand a chance of getting a job?

So basically increase the cost of goods for everyone so more people can be employed at a higher wage?

The Immigration you speak of is likely doing more good than bad, what American wants to work a low paying, back breaking job in the fields or in some factory where the second they complain, they are fired?

Re: Everyone loves Bernie Sanders. Except, it seems, the Democratic party

#73

Post by alpha_squared »

mcbruiser1 wrote: post #63
alpha_squared wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> if you just give people handouts they lose incentive and drive Is there any evidence of this? I see this argument used a lot to dissuade from the "handouts" thing and for not helping people. Don't non-profits technically receive handouts? Aren't grants technically handouts? A handout, as I understand it, is money given that isn't meant to be paid back. I think a good portion of handouts already exist, it's just eas…

yes, look at the wealth attrition rate. most wealth is lost by the third generation because of lack of responsibility and entitlement.

> most wealth is lost by the third generation because of lack of responsibility and entitlement.

Can you cite any of these claims? I'd like to understand this a little better.

Re: Everyone loves Bernie Sanders. Except, it seems, the Democratic party

#74

Post by baursak »

nodesocket wrote: post #59
baursak wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> do you want me to continue naming people who come from hard positions with little to no money and the inner-city and made it on a grand scale? Yes, please continue. I'd like a large enough sample to dig into.

Google, or go talk to successful CEOs. You will be surprised how many come from hard backgrounds, difficult early lives, and financial hardship.

I googled. What I got was something like "These 11 rich guys grew up poor". Out of 300M population, correct?

Re: Everyone loves Bernie Sanders. Except, it seems, the Democratic party

#75

Post by castis »

mcbruiser1 wrote: post #65
alpha_squared wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> how about bringing back manufacturing jobs for a start? This isn't going to happen, at least not anytime soon, though there are attempts to try[0]. America doesn't have the infrastructure to bring back manufacturing things like the iPhone[1]. > how about deregulation so employers can hire more people? Deregulation of what exactly? What's the regulation that's prohibiting "hiring more people"? > how about lowering t…

I don't need to cite evidence for common sense. clearly you have none.

This is almost the exact response I expected. You had a chance to inform someone on your position and instead you chose to personally attack their intelligence as though they were beneath you. This is the route an angry child would likely have chosen, is it not?

Everyone that reads your response will likely assume that you didn't have anything to back up your ill-informed position on the matter. Having seen this frequently on the internet, I wonder if this is the reason your account is new.

Re: Everyone loves Bernie Sanders. Except, it seems, the Democratic party

#76

Post by maxerickson »

akhilcacharya wrote: post #68
toomuchtodo wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The DNC excluded independent voters in several states during primaries, independent voters they needed to win the general. The voters she won in the primary were not the voters she needed to win. Oops. EDIT: @akhilcacharya: Why expect independents to vote for your candidate if the party doesn't give them a say in the nominee? You want your cake and eating it too, and hence, you lose.

Why are independent voters entitled to select the nominee of a party they aren't a part of? And after all, progressive candidates like Feingold and Teachout lost by an even bigger margin than Clinton in WI and Faso's district, respectively.

In general, because that is the ballot process many states use.

Personally I'd prefer the ballot process to be completely based on petitions, with parties having no direct role (they would of course endorse candidates; that endorsement shouldn't change the names that appear on ballots).

Re: Everyone loves Bernie Sanders. Except, it seems, the Democratic party

#77

Post by cnnsucks »

HoppedUpMenace wrote: post #72
mcbruiser1 wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

how about bringing back manufacturing jobs for a start? how about deregulation so employers can hire more people? how about lowering taxes? how about enforcing legal immigration so that working class people stand a chance of getting a job?

So basically increase the cost of goods for everyone so more people can be employed at a higher wage? The Immigration you speak of is likely doing more good than bad, what American wants to work a low paying, back breaking job in the fields or in some factory where the second they complain, they are fired?

"So basically increase the cost of goods for everyone so more people can be employed at a higher wage?"

Whenever the topic happens to be energy higher costs are offered as proper penance.

Re: Everyone loves Bernie Sanders. Except, it seems, the Democratic party

#78

Post by alpha_squared »

castis wrote: post #75
mcbruiser1 wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't need to cite evidence for common sense. clearly you have none.

This is almost the exact response I expected. You had a chance to inform someone on your position and instead you chose to personally attack their intelligence as though they were beneath you. This is the route an angry child would likely have chosen, is it not? Everyone that reads your response will likely assume that you didn't have anything to back up your ill-informed position on the matter. Having seen this freq…

I'm a little disappointed in the response, myself. I had hoped to diffuse the tension in the tone and simultaneously get insight into the perspective, though neither seemed to happened.

This, unfortunately, leads me to wonder if people with such hostile perspectives are too proud to ever concede an argument (and thus admit they are wrong) or if they consider their understanding too superior and complex to explain to others if they don't already "get it". Both of which are signs of serious arrogance.

How do we, as a society, move past these internal walls that keeps us from having meaningful dialogue?

Re: Everyone loves Bernie Sanders. Except, it seems, the Democratic party

#79

Post by LordKano »

faet wrote: post #5
maxxxxx wrote: post #2

I am telling my Democratic friends that instead of whining about the popular vote or talking about resisting Trump in general the Democrats should develop a spine and actually stand for something. If they had had a compelling message for the working class they could easily have won this election.

> If they had had a compelling message for the working class they could easily have won this election. So increasing minimum wage, make it easier to unionize, universal health care, protecting/expanding social security, and a bunch of other policies that would help the working class don't count? The thing is policy doesn't matter. People want 140 characters that make them feel good even if it's bad policy.

So increasing minimum wage, make it easier to unionize, universal health care, protecting/expanding social security, and a bunch of other policies that would help the working class don't count?

To be honest, no. Those don't count because most of the people who consider themselves to be the "working class" would be hurt by several of them.

A skilled tradesman who is making the equivalent of $25/hr doesn't want the minimum wage to go up. If it does, it dilutes his buying power. His wage isn't going to magically increase by $8.00/hr.

Unions have done themselves a huge disservice, by alienating the people who are not members but still have to work with them.

The ACA has turned off a lot of people from the idea of government managed health insurance. Many people, myself included, saw the quality of their coverage decrease because of the ACA.

Re: Everyone loves Bernie Sanders. Except, it seems, the Democratic party

#80

Post by maxerickson »

alpha_squared wrote: post #60
mcbruiser1 wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

how about bringing back manufacturing jobs for a start? how about deregulation so employers can hire more people? how about lowering taxes? how about enforcing legal immigration so that working class people stand a chance of getting a job?

> how about bringing back manufacturing jobs for a start? This isn't going to happen, at least not anytime soon, though there are attempts to try[0]. America doesn't have the infrastructure to bring back manufacturing things like the iPhone[1]. > how about deregulation so employers can hire more people? Deregulation of what exactly? What's the regulation that's prohibiting "hiring more people"? > how about lowering t…

In the context of healthcare, the shared responsibility provisions are often called job killing:

https://www.irs.gov/affordable-care-act/employers/questions-...

It's more expensive to have 50 employees than 49.

Also, a green card doesn't really expire, people overstay travel and work permits. A green card is for immigrants that have permanent permission to stay.

Immigration policy certainly has lots of discretionary enforcement. DACA is a big example. I think it's reasonable and the right thing to do, but it is discretionary enforcement of immigration law.

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