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Chekhov: “Cultured people must, in my opinion, satisfy the following conditions”

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Re: Chekhov: “Cultured people must, in my opinion, satisfy the following conditions”

#131

Post by hossbeast »

geoka9 wrote: post #3
siberianbear wrote: post #2

I am an American living in Russia. When I was studying Russian I read a number of Chekhov's short stories and got a feel for who he was. I later came across one of his quotes: "В человеке должно быть все прекрасно: и лицо, и одежда, и душа, и мысли" (Everything in a person should be excellent: his face, his clothes, his soul and his ideas). I sometimes discussed this phrase with Russians, eventually coming to be beli…

> Everything in a person should be excellent Probably nitpicking, but I'd translate "прекрасно" as "beautiful" here.

I thought excellent was a strange choice as well

Re: Chekhov: “Cultured people must, in my opinion, satisfy the following conditions”

#132

Post by naasking »

thegeomaster wrote: post #122
hackuser wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the theme all comes down to a battle against yourself Perhaps "control" and "battle" are the wrong model. Some broad, general suggestions based on what experts have said: Respect yourself: If you are doing something over and over again despite not wanting to, there probably is a good reason for it, a legitimate healthy need, even if the expression of that need is unhealthy. Respect that need and its priority as leg…

I like this. Very well put. However, I can't seem to be able to make a connection with the examples your parent comment mentioned. For example, if you want to lose weight but keep eating fast food despite that---what is the healthy need manifesting through that, and how do you address it in some other, good way? Same with being addicted to e.g. alcohol or smoking.

> For example, if you want to lose weight but keep eating fast food despite that---what is the healthy need manifesting through that, and how do you address it in some other, good way?

If it's not a nutritional deficiency, then perhaps it's a snacking habit, so maybe switch to nuts, sunflower seeds or fruit. The habit starts losing its power when you're no longer flooding yourself with high doses of sugar and/or salt, which is where the habit's positive reinforcement comes from.

Re: Chekhov: “Cultured people must, in my opinion, satisfy the following conditions”

#133

Post by frandroid »

kbenson wrote: post #55
makmanalp wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd always had an impression of classical Russian writing as being impenetrable, but this was delightful. Thank you!

I wonder how much of that has to do with it having been translated by people of that period into a classical style of that period. For recent history, maybe that yields "official" translations that are into an older English form that is harder for modern people to read. For example, is a 19th century translation of an ancient Greek text also somewhat impenetrable compared to a more contemporary translation? How much…

Apparently https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Pevear_and_Larissa_Vol... have made translations of Dostoyevsky which are eminently more readable than the rest. I've started reading their translation of The Master and Margarita and I'm enjoying it a lot.

Re: Chekhov: “Cultured people must, in my opinion, satisfy the following conditions”

#134

Post by bryondowd »

nybblet wrote: post #114
bryondowd wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it unlikely that he had exposure to Confucius? Russia and China were bumping into each other before Chekhov's time, and a bit of Googling is turning up cases of Russian missionaries translating Chinese works to Russian in the early 1800s.

Was just a guess on a uniform prior :) If you have specific evidence of Chekhov referencing Confucius (the similarities are so striking that either he came up with them independently, which was my original point, or he was inspired by Confucius, which should then leave traces) please do tell! That would be really cool.

I'm not savvy enough to know whether or where to find a list of works the Chekhov studied in his lifetime. I'll leave that search to others. Just floating idea that him coming across a translated work and it influencing his writing without him actually referencing it directly anywhere seems at least comparably likely as independent invention. Especially given that such translations at least existed in his time. I've got no idea about how widespread or accessible they were.

But I'm not even a hobby historian or philologist, more of an armchair philosopher.

Re: Chekhov: “Cultured people must, in my opinion, satisfy the following conditions”

#135

Post by sudosteph »

idiot_stick wrote: post #129
CaptainSwing wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

TFW you're voted down immediately for calling out sexism which, though very explicit, has so far gone uncommented upon [edit] - could someone please explain why they're voting me down?

> TFW you're voted down immediately for calling out sexism which, though very explicit, has so far gone uncommented upon What reaction were you hoping for? That we'd refuse to read the thoughts of someone who lived 150 years ago because you deem one line sexist? It's more shocking to me that someone could read a letter like this and get only "author is sexist" as the message. By the way, "freshness, elegance, humanit…

It may not have been the most elegant invitation to discourse, but CaptainSwing is right that Chekhov was conveying a very sexist attitude there.

The problem isn't so much that his favorite traits in a partner coincide with stereotypes of an idealized woman, it's that he goes out of his way to say that clever women aren't worthy partners because they're liars. The rest of his letter shows that he clearly values intelligence for himself and other men, and he clearly holds himself up to a standard that avoids lying, but for women, he thinks intelligence will produce an untrustworthy mate. He acknowledges that he is clever and honest, but does not think a female partner can share those traits. That double-standard is a flaw in his thinking and his character. An extremely common flaw for men of his time period, but a flaw nonetheless.

Acknowledging an author's sexism doesn't make his work any less meaningful, it just gives another insight into the mind of the man who wrote it. It can provide context for analysis of other parts of his work and open up some questions into his beliefs. Was he emotionally hurt by clever women lying to him? Or did he just cut-and-dry accept patriarchic notions of women as lesser beings who can't achieve the same standards of intelligence and morality? If it's the latter, what other false notions did he accept and do those make themselves apparent in his works? If it's the former, are there any aspects of his work that delve further into the theme of trust violation in relationships?

Re: Chekhov: “Cultured people must, in my opinion, satisfy the following conditions”

#136

Post by uzoodoo »

vmarovic wrote: post #10
bushin wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think "exellent" is an excellent choice of the word (beautiful ≈ красиво).

I don't know russian, but in croatian which is somewhat similar adding pre to infront of the word makes it stronger, does not change meaning. Like too beautiful or as beautiful as it could get. Though in russian it could be different. (edit or even more beautiful than it is allowed/expected/needed)

Well, if you remove "pre" from "прекрасно", you get "red-colored", so it doesn't quite work here. (Actually, it would make the first part of the sentence a bit too literal.)

Re: Chekhov: “Cultured people must, in my opinion, satisfy the following conditions”

#137

Post by hackuser »

thegeomaster wrote: post #122
hackuser wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the theme all comes down to a battle against yourself Perhaps "control" and "battle" are the wrong model. Some broad, general suggestions based on what experts have said: Respect yourself: If you are doing something over and over again despite not wanting to, there probably is a good reason for it, a legitimate healthy need, even if the expression of that need is unhealthy. Respect that need and its priority as leg…

I like this. Very well put. However, I can't seem to be able to make a connection with the examples your parent comment mentioned. For example, if you want to lose weight but keep eating fast food despite that---what is the healthy need manifesting through that, and how do you address it in some other, good way? Same with being addicted to e.g. alcohol or smoking.

> if you want to lose weight but keep eating fast food despite that---what is the healthy need manifesting through that, and how do you address it in some other, good way?

That really depends on the individual; if you'd like to sit on my couch for a couple years ... (I'd have no idea what to do).

But as examples, if your body doesn't need something nutritionally (e.g., more energy), perhaps the junk food is a source of comfort and relief from stress (i.e., 'comfort food'); there are healthier ways to obtain relief from and to otherwise deal with stress. Perhaps the buzz from the sugar and fat is an escape or makes the person feel energized; again, there are healthier solutions.

Again, I don't pretend to be an expert and what I wrote in the GP isn't the answer to life, the universe, and everything. Part of nurturing yourself is pushing yourself at times and training, but IMHO without battling and abusing yourself - again, like a good coach, teacher or manager.

> Same with being addicted to e.g. alcohol or smoking

I would think that physical (i.e., chemical) addictions are different; your body requires that chemical. Alcoholism is a disease, AFAIK.

Re: Chekhov: “Cultured people must, in my opinion, satisfy the following conditions”

#138

Post by komali2 »

naasking wrote: post #132
thegeomaster wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like this. Very well put. However, I can't seem to be able to make a connection with the examples your parent comment mentioned. For example, if you want to lose weight but keep eating fast food despite that---what is the healthy need manifesting through that, and how do you address it in some other, good way? Same with being addicted to e.g. alcohol or smoking.

> For example, if you want to lose weight but keep eating fast food despite that---what is the healthy need manifesting through that, and how do you address it in some other, good way? If it's not a nutritional deficiency, then perhaps it's a snacking habit, so maybe switch to nuts, sunflower seeds or fruit. The habit starts losing its power when you're no longer flooding yourself with high doses of sugar and/or salt…

Another extremely difficult aspect of that "battle" or self-improvement mindset: our mental state depends a great deal on body chemistry. Sure it's hard to start lifting, but if you've been lifting for a year and have a lot of fun dopamine floating around as a result and have had time to associate lifting with those dopamine rushes, it's actually harder to not lift. It's almost unfair, really, that our mental state is kind of "out of our control." If you're 2 days without food, being a "good person" and maintaining your values becomes extremely difficult. After 5, forget about it, your humanity will have almost completely slipped away, and there's almost nothing you can do about it.

Re: Chekhov: “Cultured people must, in my opinion, satisfy the following conditions”

#139

Post by komali2 »

hackuser wrote: post #137
thegeomaster wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like this. Very well put. However, I can't seem to be able to make a connection with the examples your parent comment mentioned. For example, if you want to lose weight but keep eating fast food despite that---what is the healthy need manifesting through that, and how do you address it in some other, good way? Same with being addicted to e.g. alcohol or smoking.

> if you want to lose weight but keep eating fast food despite that---what is the healthy need manifesting through that, and how do you address it in some other, good way? That really depends on the individual; if you'd like to sit on my couch for a couple years ... (I'd have no idea what to do). But as examples, if your body doesn't need something nutritionally (e.g., more energy), perhaps the junk food is a source…

> I would think that physical (i.e., chemical) addictions are different; your body requires that chemical. Alcoholism is a disease, AFAIK.

The interesting thing is I believe I can make a convincing argument that "life" is a disease that can be overcome - for example, a highly trained monk can meditate himself to death, ignoring the body's desire for food or water. When it comes to us, "require" can, with training, be nullified. We can even, apparently, out-think our most basic pain responses (see: the burning monk).

Re: Chekhov: “Cultured people must, in my opinion, satisfy the following conditions”

#140

Post by 15charlimit »

nybblet wrote: post #69
johan_larson wrote: post #22

I suspect a subtle mistranslation here. Chekhov seems to be talking about decent people, or maybe good people, not cultured ones. In English, it is quite possible to be cultured but bad. You know all kinds of stuff about literature, music, art, history and science (and therefore you are cultured) but you cheat on your wife and your taxes (and are therefore bad).

Agreed with treve, what does culture really mean? If you read ALL the literature, listen to ALL the music, view ALL the art, can recite ALL the history and do ALL the science... and still conclude it's OK to cheat on your wife and taxes, the argument can be made that none of this culture was internalized, and hence you are not cultured. Of course things are rarely so black-and-white, but that's the gist of it.

Or that "culture" approves (or at least does not disapprove) of such activity.
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