Chekhov: “Cultured people must, in my opinion, satisfy the following conditions” • Hacker News Board

Re: Chekhov: “Cultured people must, in my opinion, satisfy the following conditions”

#81

Post by kbenson » Tue, Mar 14, 2017, 6:25 PM UTC

stevecalifornia wrote: post #77

kbenson wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's also possible the current physical manifestations of these devices will change quite a bit in the near future. I imagine in 20 years of less we'll mostly be using some eye based (glasses, lenses, whatever) display with AR and gesture control.(likely with a gesture "shorthand" for AR control with limited movement for when you don't want to wave your hand in front of you). At that point, it will be both much more…

Thats an intriguing prediction of the future.

Well, I think all the essential features are already present, so I think it's a fairly safe bet.

- We already have AR

- We already have gesture control

- We already have glasses displays

- I already use my phone in this manner in conversations (I'll do a quick lookup on something we are discussing but are unsure about while trying to still listen).

You could essentially live most of this scenario right now if you were willing to put up with the heavy equipment and short battery life.

Re: Chekhov: “Cultured people must, in my opinion, satisfy the following conditions”

#82

Post by Coincoin » Tue, Mar 14, 2017, 6:25 PM UTC

CaptainSwing wrote: post #52

CaptainSwing wrote: post #47

> They do not ask for the cleverness which shows itself in continual lying. They want especially, if they are artists, freshness, elegance, humanity, the capacity for motherhood ugh. Cut the misogynistic crap please Chekhov

TFW you're voted down immediately for calling out sexism which, though very explicit, has so far gone uncommented upon [edit] - could someone please explain why they're voting me down?

I didn't down vote you but my guess is: The guy has been dead for over a hundred years now. Everybody knows society was more patriarchal back then, pointing it out just sounds like virtue signaling.

Re: Chekhov: “Cultured people must, in my opinion, satisfy the following conditions”

#83

Post by pougetj » Tue, Mar 14, 2017, 6:26 PM UTC

mden wrote: post #63

wruza wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There definitely is a way, that's how all research is done. You send three groups there, one that doesn't touch anything, one that touches his nose, and another one that touches nose of the fake statue, without knowing that it is fake. If second group appears to have more luck than the other two over time, then it works.

This unfortunately does not account for different groups having different starting luck. I suppose you can in part handle that by having very large groups but since luck is luck simply the process of selection, even if random, is biased which gives you another problem.

Which is why units should be randomly selected into each groups to avoid confounding factors like the one you mention.

Re: Chekhov: “Cultured people must, in my opinion, satisfy the following conditions”

#84

Post by ameister14 » Tue, Mar 14, 2017, 6:26 PM UTC

nybblet wrote: post #69

johan_larson wrote: post #22

I suspect a subtle mistranslation here. Chekhov seems to be talking about decent people, or maybe good people, not cultured ones. In English, it is quite possible to be cultured but bad. You know all kinds of stuff about literature, music, art, history and science (and therefore you are cultured) but you cheat on your wife and your taxes (and are therefore bad).

Agreed with treve, what does culture really mean? If you read ALL the literature, listen to ALL the music, view ALL the art, can recite ALL the history and do ALL the science... and still conclude it's OK to cheat on your wife and taxes, the argument can be made that none of this culture was internalized, and hence you are not cultured. Of course things are rarely so black-and-white, but that's the gist of it.

You can understand something and possess the qualities of it and still choose to ignore them

Re: Chekhov: “Cultured people must, in my opinion, satisfy the following conditions”

#85

Post by sudosteph » Tue, Mar 14, 2017, 6:28 PM UTC

CaptainSwing wrote: post #52

CaptainSwing wrote: post #47

> They do not ask for the cleverness which shows itself in continual lying. They want especially, if they are artists, freshness, elegance, humanity, the capacity for motherhood ugh. Cut the misogynistic crap please Chekhov

TFW you're voted down immediately for calling out sexism which, though very explicit, has so far gone uncommented upon [edit] - could someone please explain why they're voting me down?

I didn't downvote, but the downvotes are probably a result of the brevity and slightly vulgar nature ("cut the crap") of your response. I do actually agree with you though.

I was hoping others would bring it up too, but as with all "problematic" historical icons, we're supposed to accept that even though he was extremely wrong about women, it was just a byproduct of his society and not worth discussing about the person as a whole. I think that's a huge cop-out though. I don't think we should write him off or stop reading his works, but sexism is a real flaw in a person's character.

It's worth wondering why he was so eager to tell his brother that intelligent women are liars not worthy of relationships. Was he emotionally hurt by someone in particular and lashing out against all women? Does he just like feeling superiority over women as a class of people, and therefore accepted certain norms of patriarchy without questioning because it benefitted him? The former reason is sad, but understandable, while the latter would make me wonder if those norms are reinforced in his works as well.

Re: Chekhov: “Cultured people must, in my opinion, satisfy the following conditions”

#86

Post by Boothroid » Tue, Mar 14, 2017, 6:28 PM UTC

zaccus wrote: post #75

Boothroid wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Case in point: I'm better than you attitude. So cultured!

And you being so proud of how uncultured you are is different how?

It isn't different. Perhaps I'm just as legitimate a target of criticism for my depressing scepticism. To each their own. But at least I don't namecheck Vonnegut and Chekhov like a 20-something pseud..

Re: Chekhov: “Cultured people must, in my opinion, satisfy the following conditions”

#87

Post by bryondowd » Tue, Mar 14, 2017, 6:30 PM UTC

nybblet wrote: post #58

I'm struck by how much this echoes Confucius and the Analects and how they define the so-called gentleman or noble man (not to be confused with nobleman, and translation is hard). Given how unlikely it is that Chekhov had exposure to either, it's incredible to observe the universality of these qualities considered admirable. If people haven't, do recommend checking out The Analects! Caveat: there are quite a few exce…

Is it unlikely that he had exposure to Confucius?

Russia and China were bumping into each other before Chekhov's time, and a bit of Googling is turning up cases of Russian missionaries translating Chinese works to Russian in the early 1800s.

Re: Chekhov: “Cultured people must, in my opinion, satisfy the following conditions”

#88

Post by CaptainSwing » Tue, Mar 14, 2017, 6:34 PM UTC

sudosteph wrote: post #85

CaptainSwing wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

TFW you're voted down immediately for calling out sexism which, though very explicit, has so far gone uncommented upon [edit] - could someone please explain why they're voting me down?

I didn't downvote, but the downvotes are probably a result of the brevity and slightly vulgar nature ("cut the crap") of your response. I do actually agree with you though. I was hoping others would bring it up too, but as with all "problematic" historical icons, we're supposed to accept that even though he was extremely wrong about women, it was just a byproduct of his society and not worth discussing about the pers…

Yeah, I guess 'cut the crap' was maybe considered a bit crude.

Thanks for the response.

Re: Chekhov: “Cultured people must, in my opinion, satisfy the following conditions”

#89

Post by Boothroid » Tue, Mar 14, 2017, 6:40 PM UTC

munchbunny wrote: post #38

Boothroid wrote: post #11

And all this striving towards Chekhov's idea of cultured allows one to achieve what? I'd venture that for most it would amount to smugly patting themselves on the back for having achieved such a fine state of serenity. If this version of cultured means just another way to feel superior to others, I'm happy to be uncultured.

If you look at the actual list, it's a recipe to living a generally happy life. If I had to summarize the list, it'd look like this: 1. Let go of small things. 2. Have sympathy for the people around you. 3. Repay your debts. 4. Don't lie, don't brag, and don't gossip. 5. Don't disparage yourself to fish for pity. 6. Be humble. Let your talents prove themselves. 7. Spend time on the things that matter to you. 8. Long…

So very much like the Ten Commandments then, only with a veneer of coffee shop faux-intellectualism.

Re: Chekhov: “Cultured people must, in my opinion, satisfy the following conditions”

#90

Post by eternalban » Tue, Mar 14, 2017, 6:43 PM UTC

mden wrote: post #63

wruza wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There definitely is a way, that's how all research is done. You send three groups there, one that doesn't touch anything, one that touches his nose, and another one that touches nose of the fake statue, without knowing that it is fake. If second group appears to have more luck than the other two over time, then it works.

This unfortunately does not account for different groups having different starting luck. I suppose you can in part handle that by having very large groups but since luck is luck simply the process of selection, even if random, is biased which gives you another problem.

I agree. A single person -- and who better than siberianbear? -- can experiment with taking risks and carefully noting if he touched Chekov's nose or not that day.