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Scotland to seek second independence referendum

bbc.com

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Re: Scotland to seek second independence referendum

#311

Post by sambeau »

pjc50 wrote: post #193
sambeau wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Disclaimer: I'm a child of English parents who was born in Wales but grew up in Scotland. I have Scottish and English children, in-laws and cousins. I have a family home in Scotland but I currently live in England. My children live in England and Scotland. Some of us live in Italy. What a fucking mess of a total fucking disaster. None of this needed to happen and it's a total nightmare for me and my family. If this g…

The economics are very disputable - the UK doesn't do regional apportionment of tax collection other than (just now) income tax, so not everyone believes the GERS number of £9bn. And now it's even more disputable with Brexit: what farm subsidies will Scotland recieve, for example? What's the future cuts scenario for the UK? What happens if the rUK starts mass deportation of EU nationals? Parts of England are a few Da…

> not everyone believes the GERS number of £9bn.

The GERS figures are produced by Scottish Government statisticians. Why would they massage the out of Scotland's favour?

Re: Scotland to seek second independence referendum

#312

Post by sambeau »

maze-le wrote: post #207
sambeau wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Total collapse of the UK is looking quite possible. - Scotland is likely to go (despite what the polls say right now) - Northern Ireland is quite likely to join Ireland - God knows what Wales is going to do

Northern Ireland is a very tricky issue. Despite the majority in vote against Brexit, there is an almost 50/50 divide between pro-british unionists and pro-irish nationalists. As far as I understand it, the government in Belfast has been a close cooperation between both sides since 1998. If that cooperation breaks down no one knows what is about to happen, but many fear that the violence of the 'Troubles' might retur…

I will admit that this is a gross simplification. However it's a totally plausible prediction. I stand by it as a summary.

Re: Scotland to seek second independence referendum

#313

Post by dagenleg »

ceejayoz wrote: post #194
dagenleg wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would they claim it as their own if the population is not Spanish?

Short version: look at a map. Long version: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disputed_status_of_Gibraltar

If the population does not want to be part of the country, one cannot just annex the territory in the modern times.

Re: Scotland to seek second independence referendum

#314

Post by nailer »

Snowdax wrote: post #183
NachoDuck wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Primarily Spain I think? I couldn't find a good source saying they would block the membership outright but there's an article here which includes some details about which states are opposed the EU negotiating potential membership for Scotland as part of Brexit (I realise that's slightly different to Scotland joining as an independent nation). 'Brexit: Spain and France oppose Scotland EU talks' - http://www.bbc.co.uk/…

Spain has just come out last week and said that they are OK with Scotland joining the EU as long as England has signed of on Scotland leaving the UK first and the independence process being completed. The implication being that it would not set a Catalonian precedent as Spain would be inclined to never sign off on Catalonia leaving in the first place.

> England has signed of on Scotland leaving the UK first

England doesn't 'sign off' for whether Scotland is in union or not as that is Scotland's choice, not England's. England acknowledge this and would never say otherwise.

Re: Scotland to seek second independence referendum

#315

Post by nailer »

deadbunny wrote: post #114
nailer wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, this is Corbyn. He was also simultaneously for and against Brexit.

Because it's a rather complex issue that was boiled down to in/out. I voted to remain in the end but I can certainly see a lot of the arguments from the leave folks.

Sure but after evaluating, and deciding that one option is better, a leader should make that opinion known strongly.

Cameron and Corbyn standing together and saying "this is dangerous and stupid" would have sent a very powerful message.

Re: Scotland to seek second independence referendum

#317

Post by ceejayoz »

dagenleg wrote: post #313
ceejayoz wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Short version: look at a map. Long version: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disputed_status_of_Gibraltar

If the population does not want to be part of the country, one cannot just annex the territory in the modern times.

Correct. That said, if the UK leaves the EU, and freedom of movement goes away, the opinions of Gibraltar's residents may change fairly rapidly.

Re: Scotland to seek second independence referendum

#318

Post by philipov »

icu wrote: post #250
philipov wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it'll take many changes along the lines of: a constitutional convention to patch holes in the bill of rights; restoring financial independence to states so they can act as a check on the power of the national government; and universal basic income to eliminate financial coercion of the electorate. But I'm not convinced that will work, or even that it's possible. There are serious practical and political barri…

Wouldn't the first step be to abolish the welfare state? That way it eliminates financial coercion of the electorate and stops the viability of r-selection reproduction that resulted in the demographic shift that enables these sorts of politicians in the first place?

No, I think the first place to start is figuring out how, even assuming you come up with a plan that works, to ever get it implemented it in good faith when both political parties represent a threat to free society. Both sides of the aisle have already been captured, and will never allow legislation that threatens their hold on power. They will eviscerate it with amendments and poison it with riders.

Re: Scotland to seek second independence referendum

#319

Post by soneil »

Someone1234 wrote: post #100

Disclaimer: I'm English. One can hardly blame them. I was a unionist during the first referendum simply because I thought we were stronger together and felt that the Scottish made the UK as a whole more liberal (which, to be clear, is a GOOD thing). But after Brexit one cannot blame or criticise them for wanting to leave. I want to leave too! If their choice is being part of a fairly progressive EU or a conservative/…

I don't blame them at all. A large part of the "better together" campaign was fear-mongering that Spain would block their re-entry to the EU (ostensibly to set a precedent that'd make Catalunya's 'exit' more difficult).

It does feel like they were entirely hoodwinked on that particular point.

Re: Scotland to seek second independence referendum

#320

Post by falsedan »

Boothroid wrote: post #279
Boothroid wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, please. With or without Scotland, England remains in the lead or on a par with the other most advanced countries in the world in most areas. Of course it has it's problems - like everywhere else - but the downturn that was forecasted to begin immediately after a leave vote has not materialised, with the UK economy proving remarkably resilient in this post-leave/pre-Article 50 period. If we judge it by the wisdom…

Thanks for the downvote instead of challenging any of my points! People just try to suppress differing opinions instead of engaging with them these days. It's sad. We can only learn by talking. Are disagreements really so threatening to your echo chamber?

You're not interested in learning, only soapboxing.
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