Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Scotland to seek second independence referendum

bbc.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

291–300 of 327 posts

Re: Scotland to seek second independence referendum

#291

Post by sangnoir »

icu wrote: post #250
philipov wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it'll take many changes along the lines of: a constitutional convention to patch holes in the bill of rights; restoring financial independence to states so they can act as a check on the power of the national government; and universal basic income to eliminate financial coercion of the electorate. But I'm not convinced that will work, or even that it's possible. There are serious practical and political barri…

Wouldn't the first step be to abolish the welfare state? That way it eliminates financial coercion of the electorate and stops the viability of r-selection reproduction that resulted in the demographic shift that enables these sorts of politicians in the first place?

> Wouldn't the first step be to abolish the welfare state?

Universal Basic Income is the very definition of welfare state, and the purpose of which is to counter the effect special interests coercion. To abolish it would be to empower the lobbyists and too-big-to-fail corporates

Re: Scotland to seek second independence referendum

#292

Post by k-mcgrady »

gumby wrote: post #176
k-mcgrady wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> It's also looking likely that Brexit will cause problems for the Northern Ireland peace arrangement. This is the first time I've felt a border poll in Northern Ireland is a possibility. The recent election resulted in a huge swing in power and a hard border with the south would be devastating for a lot of people regardless of political persuasion. It'll be interesting to see how each part of the UK ends up in 5-10…

> It'll be interesting to see how each part of the UK ends up in 5-10 years time. NI could ally with Scotland and remain a United Kingdom in the EU. Then it would be England and Wales leaving the Union. I must admit this is more of a board game fantasy than an actual possibility given the time and I/NI politics, but is amusing to consider.

It would never happen but definitely fun to consider. It would solve the EU border issue and the NI/ROI border issue. I wonder if NI and Scotland paired would do better economically together than on their own.

Re: Scotland to seek second independence referendum

#293

Post by restalis »

Symbiote wrote: post #288
restalis wrote: post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

«Personally, when traveling abroad, if asked where I'm from, I generally say "Washington DC", not "the US".» Yeah, I've met people like you. The problem is, this asks from your interlocutor of awareness for internal USA geography knowledge. On the other hand, many of those "from San Francisco" or from somewhere alike expect you to be just "from Europe" instead of "Germany" (or any other national state with its own cu…

It doesn't need any extra knowledge, assuming people know Washington DC is in the USA. They're no worse off than if he says "the USA". I often say "London". I don't like saying "England", I consider the whole UK to by my country, but "United Kingdom" or even "Britain" are often not understood, and in any case, "which city?" is almost always the next question. There are exceptions. If I'm introducing myself to someone…

It happened to me quite a lot to introduce foreign clients to local acquaintances that haven't traveled abroad and don't have much knowledge (or interest) about outside world. Yeah, they heard of Washington (DC), alright, but haven't heard of SF and that caused a scene to my local pals with them being clearly unaware of where that place was and also being a little embarrassed to ask more. US citizens are not the only ones, this also happened with Vancouver and Melbourne. These are indeed prominent cities but not necessarily in anyone's world, and it seems nicer when that "which city?" comes instead of "where is that?"

Re: Scotland to seek second independence referendum

#294

Post by T-A »

Boothroid wrote: post #271
Someone1234 wrote: post #100

Disclaimer: I'm English. One can hardly blame them. I was a unionist during the first referendum simply because I thought we were stronger together and felt that the Scottish made the UK as a whole more liberal (which, to be clear, is a GOOD thing). But after Brexit one cannot blame or criticise them for wanting to leave. I want to leave too! If their choice is being part of a fairly progressive EU or a conservative/…

Oh, please. With or without Scotland, England remains in the lead or on a par with the other most advanced countries in the world in most areas. Of course it has it's problems - like everywhere else - but the downturn that was forecasted to begin immediately after a leave vote has not materialised, with the UK economy proving remarkably resilient in this post-leave/pre-Article 50 period. If we judge it by the wisdom…

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/mar/03/uk-economy-...

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2017-03-01/after-bre...

https://www.bloomberg.com/politics/articles/2017-02-27/u-k-s...

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/feb/23/net-migratio...

Re: Scotland to seek second independence referendum

#295

Post by matthewmacleod »

Boothroid wrote: post #287
matthewmacleod wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is a shallow and reductive approach to a rather complex constitutional issue. I don't doubt that there was strong anti-English sentiment among some groups in Scotland in 2014. However, there are always extreme elements to any political movement - the mainstream campaigns were open and constructive, and in my opinion it's a weasel argument to complain that "nothing was done to discourage" anti-English sentiment.…

I seem to remember plenty of noise from the SNP about how Brexit would/has unleashed racist forces, but apparently the same argument doesn't apply to Scottish independence because it's not possible to be racist towards the English.

That's perhaps a semantic argument if any is!

I'm not sure I could support the view that the two referenda are directly comparable in that sense. There has been no noise from the Scottish government about 'too many English here' or anything like that - rather more along the lines of everybody being welcome in a self-determining country. Contrast that with the dog-whistle EU campaign, with the 'new border with Iraq' leaflets (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C2XwDAEXUAE597E.jpg) or the whole 'breaking point' billboard campaign (http://img.huffingtonpost.com/asset/scalefit_630_noupscale/5...) - these are mainstream campaigns, and I didn't encounter anything even close to this yellow in the Scottish referendum.

There will always be a hardcore of extreme views in any political campaign, and it's important for the mainstream to denounce this where it's out of line. But we can't take the extremes and use them as a basis for comparison in that way.

Re: Scotland to seek second independence referendum

#296

Post by restalis »

gozur88 wrote: post #251

What do these kinds of referendums mean? This is just three years after the last "once in a generation" referendum. Let's say it goes independence. Will supporters be okay with another referendum three years later that might reverse that decision? It all smacks of opportunism and reminds me of all the other EU-related votes that keep happening until voters pick the right answer.

It seems that the state affairs have the means to be more agile nowadays. It's a good thing that switches can happen more than once in a generation.

Re: Scotland to seek second independence referendum

#297

Post by Boothroid »

T-A wrote: post #294
Boothroid wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, please. With or without Scotland, England remains in the lead or on a par with the other most advanced countries in the world in most areas. Of course it has it's problems - like everywhere else - but the downturn that was forecasted to begin immediately after a leave vote has not materialised, with the UK economy proving remarkably resilient in this post-leave/pre-Article 50 period. If we judge it by the wisdom…

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/mar/03/uk-economy-... https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2017-03-01/after-bre... https://www.bloomberg.com/politics/articles/2017-02-27/u-k-s... https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/feb/23/net-migratio...

Firstly, the Grauniad is hardly an unbiased source these days, sadly. Secondly excuse me if I'm sceptical about the predictions of economists. Thirdly, your second source trots out a tired myth of remainers - that leaving the EU means we will not be able to fill low skilled work. It means nothing of the sort - it just means that we can choose what low skilled workers we let in, and if we want to continue to offer EU citizens seasonal work in the agricultural sector, nothing about Brexit prevents that. Fourth, your third source contains only predictions about the return of Polish citizens. Finally, your fourth source reflects a mixed picture - headlined 'Net migration to UK falls sharply after Brexit vote', we then find the following comments later on:

'Home Office figures show that the number of EU nationals in Britain who had their applications processed for UK residence documents to secure their individual status more than doubled from 92,289 in 2015 to 201,287 in 2016. More than 140,000 were successful.'

'Work continues to prove the main driver for near-record levels of immigration, particularly from within the EU, whose citizens accounted for 180,000 of the 294,000 who came to Britain to work in the year to September'

..so overall, far from a conclusive rebuttal of my points.

Re: Scotland to seek second independence referendum

#298

Post by mezod »

ruairidhwm wrote: post #285
mezod wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, I now realize my answer could appear to be rude when it wasn't my intention. The correct year to consider it fully a region of Spain would be 1714, when the Spanish army defeated the catalans and removed most of its state structures/institutions, etc. This article's intro might help: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principality_of_Catalonia I don't want to bore you with a history lesson that I myself might not k…

Ah that's really interesting, thanks! I didn't mean any offence by my statement, I understand that of course Catalan's case for independence is no less valid! I suppose it's really just legal wrangling :)

No offense at all! It's just that history is written by the winners and we have so little international visibility that it hurts :P

Re: Scotland to seek second independence referendum

#299

Post by Symbiote »

restalis wrote: post #293
Symbiote wrote: post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't need any extra knowledge, assuming people know Washington DC is in the USA. They're no worse off than if he says "the USA". I often say "London". I don't like saying "England", I consider the whole UK to by my country, but "United Kingdom" or even "Britain" are often not understood, and in any case, "which city?" is almost always the next question. There are exceptions. If I'm introducing myself to someone…

It happened to me quite a lot to introduce foreign clients to local acquaintances that haven't traveled abroad and don't have much knowledge (or interest) about outside world. Yeah, they heard of Washington (DC), alright, but haven't heard of SF and that caused a scene to my local pals with them being clearly unaware of where that place was and also being a little embarrassed to ask more. US citizens are not the only…

Vancouver and Melbourne I can understand, but I'm amazed that there are people in the developed world that haven't heard of San Francisco.

That city has been part of the American "brand" for decades; from hippies, free love, Vietnam protesters and gay rights, to the dot-com boom and more recent startups. Add some destructive earthquakes, plenty of American films and music, and the international press whenever a startup does something bad.

Re: Scotland to seek second independence referendum

#300

Post by vilmosi »

falsedan wrote: post #211
zigzigzag wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that's nonsense. The GERS figures were accepted beforehand by the SNP themselves, and they're the best available. Even if they're out by 10% that's still a massive financial hole Scotland is looking at. Of course nationalists will now decide that the figures are inconvenient and so must be wrong, but their track record on economics isn't great - their prior plan involved building their fairer, kinder Scotland…

I think everyone here has a poor view of Tory voters, regardless of national origin.

Not me
Post reply on HN