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Scotland to seek second independence referendum

bbc.com

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Re: Scotland to seek second independence referendum

#271

Post by Boothroid »

Someone1234 wrote: post #100

Disclaimer: I'm English. One can hardly blame them. I was a unionist during the first referendum simply because I thought we were stronger together and felt that the Scottish made the UK as a whole more liberal (which, to be clear, is a GOOD thing). But after Brexit one cannot blame or criticise them for wanting to leave. I want to leave too! If their choice is being part of a fairly progressive EU or a conservative/…

Oh, please. With or without Scotland, England remains in the lead or on a par with the other most advanced countries in the world in most areas. Of course it has it's problems - like everywhere else - but the downturn that was forecasted to begin immediately after a leave vote has not materialised, with the UK economy proving remarkably resilient in this post-leave/pre-Article 50 period. If we judge it by the wisdom of crowds, I don't see a massive exodus of immigrants leaving the UK in fear of a downturn post-Brexit - in fact the opposite - I seem to encounter more and more immigrants everywhere I go in England, so no doubt they judge that your sinking ship is preferable to life in Spain, Poland etc. If you want to see a sinking ship, look across the EU where there is mass unemployment, suppression of free speech in support of mass immigration, a failed currency resulting in destructive economic imbalances, social dislocation due to lack of integration of migrants, free movement for terrorists and criminals, nepotism, all ruled over by an unelected and unaccountable elite in Brussels.

England is still one of the most important economies in the world. Better not hope she goes down, or everyone gets poorer.

Re: Scotland to seek second independence referendum

#272

Post by mezod »

ruairidhwm wrote: post #238
mezod wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

wait what? Catalonia has always been what? Nope.

Hey - if I'm wrong then I'd love to be corrected as I'm currently labouring under the impression that Catalonia is legally a region of Spain and has been part of Spain since around 1469 which was when the concept of what we now know as Spain started. Not at all wanting a flame-war etc but if I'm wrong then I'd really like to know! :)

Sorry, I now realize my answer could appear to be rude when it wasn't my intention.

The correct year to consider it fully a region of Spain would be 1714, when the Spanish army defeated the catalans and removed most of its state structures/institutions, etc. This article's intro might help: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principality_of_Catalonia

I don't want to bore you with a history lesson that I myself might not know accurately, but I feel the need to say that different namings for the same levels of independence of state structures should be taken into consideration. So saying "Catalonia has always been a region of Spain" is far from the truth or at least it skips a lot of history.

Re: Scotland to seek second independence referendum

#273

Post by Gravityloss »

smcl wrote: post #208
jcranmer wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

North Sea wells are declining.

True but that's been known for a while - and afaik there hasn't been a definitive "oil will run out in 20xx" answer. Main thing hurting right now is the global slump in oil price hammering the North East - to be fair all of this does suggest that Scotland needs to focus on diversifying into renewables and tech but that was always the plan. It's just kinda irritating that this has come up now as it's a convenient stic…

I'm just thinking if you count the subsidies as coming from Britain to Scotland but not the oil being pumped from Scotland and sent to Britain?

How would the borders go in case of separation? Seems Scotland has only one refinery, and it's half owned by a Chinese company.

Re: Scotland to seek second independence referendum

#274

Post by Boothroid »

ruairidhwm wrote: post #102
Someone1234 wrote: post #100

Disclaimer: I'm English. One can hardly blame them. I was a unionist during the first referendum simply because I thought we were stronger together and felt that the Scottish made the UK as a whole more liberal (which, to be clear, is a GOOD thing). But after Brexit one cannot blame or criticise them for wanting to leave. I want to leave too! If their choice is being part of a fairly progressive EU or a conservative/…

Disclaimer: I'm Scottish Really appreciate the well-wishing on it. I would love for there to still be a very open relationship between the two countries. We've got plenty of space up here and a booming tech scene! Agreed on clarification with the EU membership but I think this is something that the SNP have been working on and that we can expect to see follow-up announcements. Interesting times!

Let's be honest though, winter in Scotland is long, dark and miserable.

Re: Scotland to seek second independence referendum

#275

Post by Boothroid »

zigzigzag wrote: post #209
ceejayoz wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is also a wonderful bargaining chip for the EU to play against Theresa May in negotiating the terms of the UK's exit. Yup. "You lot can leave, but we'll take Scotland. Your choice."

You're assuming the EU will want it. Germans are going to face a large hike in their contributions to the EU in the next few years as the UK leaves, as the EU appears to be utterly incapable of actually spending less (despite now having diminished responsibility). That's just not in its nature. So then Scotland comes along. The best available data says it's an economic basket case significantly worse than Greece. The…

Don't know why this has been downvoted. It's on topic and not even a particularly controversial line of argument. I'd hate to think downvotes were happening due to prejudice, but it does seem that the left wing wants to suppress differing opinion these days.

Re: Scotland to seek second independence referendum

#276

Post by Boothroid »

ruairidhwm wrote: post #158
lessisntmore wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you elaborate on why England is a sinking ship? I ask because you're not the first person I've heard say that, but apart from a referendum 6 months ago, what has changed?

I think the view the pound losing 20% of its value, large-scale cuts to social spending and the economic effects of Brexit yet to be felt create a sense of worry about England's financial future. Also the increase in racist attacks, xenophobia etc.

The pound losing its value makes our exports cheaper, and inward investment more attractive. Lavish welfare state spending makes many people in the UK dependent on benefits - there are plenty of jobs out there for those that look, and we should be housing single men that have paid in for 40 years ahead of families of migrants. The increase in racist attacks and xenophobia is mostly unproven, as any crime can be reported as a hate crime, and there is no requirement to prove the hate element; not to mention the efforts of the vested interests/left wing press including the BBC, who are obviously desperate to undermine the Brexit vote by any means possible.

Re: Scotland to seek second independence referendum

#277

Post by restalis »

alistairSH wrote: post #197
pbhjpbhj wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Disclaimer: I'm a child of English parents who was born in Wales but grew up in Scotland. I have Scottish and English children, in-laws and cousins. I have a family home in Scotland but I currently live in England. My children live in England and Scotland. Some of us live in Italy. // This may be an indication of the problem. To my view your opener should be "I'm a child of British parents, born in Britain and grew…

Whilst that doesn't seem to be the case in other parts of the world [corrections?] Some (many?) Americans would describe themselves as hailing from a specific state or city, not the nation. Personally, when traveling abroad, if asked where I'm from, I generally say "Washington DC", not "the US".

«Personally, when traveling abroad, if asked where I'm from, I generally say "Washington DC", not "the US".»

Yeah, I've met people like you. The problem is, this asks from your interlocutor of awareness for internal USA geography knowledge. On the other hand, many of those "from San Francisco" or from somewhere alike expect you to be just "from Europe" instead of "Germany" (or any other national state with its own cultural identity and external policy, for that matter).

P.S.: Try "Franconia" or "Thuringia" instead of "Germany" and see how many bells that rings! Mind you, these are broad regions, not merely cities.

Re: Scotland to seek second independence referendum

#278

Post by legulere »

jonathansizz wrote: post #253
diakritikal wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Fracturing is almost always a bad idea and bigger countries almost always do better than the smaller ones. This is demonstrably false: roughly half of the top ten countries ranked by standard of living and quality of life are small European nations about the same size as Scotland. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Dev...

I think neverminder meant that, amongst countries that separate, the larger of the new countries will generally be better off than their smaller neighbour. Your list doesn't address this point. Examples would include Pakistan-Bangladesh; Czech Republic-Slovakia; and Sudan-South Sudan.

Your own list has a counterpoint: Bangladesh has a better HDI than Pakistan. Republic of Ireland also has an higher HDI than the UK and they were in much worse state than the UK when they became independent.

Re: Scotland to seek second independence referendum

#279

Post by Boothroid »

Boothroid wrote: post #271
Someone1234 wrote: post #100

Disclaimer: I'm English. One can hardly blame them. I was a unionist during the first referendum simply because I thought we were stronger together and felt that the Scottish made the UK as a whole more liberal (which, to be clear, is a GOOD thing). But after Brexit one cannot blame or criticise them for wanting to leave. I want to leave too! If their choice is being part of a fairly progressive EU or a conservative/…

Oh, please. With or without Scotland, England remains in the lead or on a par with the other most advanced countries in the world in most areas. Of course it has it's problems - like everywhere else - but the downturn that was forecasted to begin immediately after a leave vote has not materialised, with the UK economy proving remarkably resilient in this post-leave/pre-Article 50 period. If we judge it by the wisdom…

Thanks for the downvote instead of challenging any of my points! People just try to suppress differing opinions instead of engaging with them these days. It's sad. We can only learn by talking. Are disagreements really so threatening to your echo chamber?

Re: Scotland to seek second independence referendum

#280

Post by matthewmacleod »

Boothroid wrote: post #260
matthewmacleod wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hello, please remain respectful. It's fine to disagree with the the SNP's policies, but calling them 'racist' is clearly outside the bounds of reason. To answer your specific point, my understanding is that general noise from Spain is that a Scottish application for EU membership would not be vetoed.

I think you are using semantics to avoid the deeper issue. Call it what you like: there were plenty of documented examples of anti-English speech, intimidation and outright violence towards English people in Scotland during the Scottish referendum, and the SNP certainly didn't seem to try very hard to discourage the more wild eyed elements. Scotland's economy will be wrecked by leaving the UK as there will no longer…

That is a shallow and reductive approach to a rather complex constitutional issue.

I don't doubt that there was strong anti-English sentiment among some groups in Scotland in 2014. However, there are always extreme elements to any political movement - the mainstream campaigns were open and constructive, and in my opinion it's a weasel argument to complain that "nothing was done to discourage" anti-English sentiment.

Now in reality, it's hard to make a solid argument conomic case for Scottish independence. The sums can work out, but it will likely mean belt-tightening until the Scottish economy develops further. But the short-term economic outcome is not the only metric by which success can be measured.

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