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Scotland to seek second independence referendum

bbc.com

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Re: Scotland to seek second independence referendum

#281

Post by edblarney »

Symbiote wrote: post #103
edblarney wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sweden chose not to join the Euro. Oddly - European nations that don't use the Euro are generally much better off: Norway (though not EU), Denmark, Sweden, UK. In hindsight, the UK's decision to not join the Euro is widely accepted as smart. The Euro is effectively a 'hard Germany currency' that has entrapped the periphery of Europe into a monetary system that massively favours the Germans. Maybe it could have worked…

> Denmark The Danish Krone is pegged to the Euro, within a very tight margin. http://www.xe.com/currencycharts/?from=DKK&to=EUR&view=5Y And you've missed Poland, Hungary, Czechia, Romania and Bulgaria; these countries don't use the Euro, but aren't usually considered much better off.

Well, Eastern European countries are growing much more rapidly than the others.

But they are definitely different - they were closed economies, way behind, and there's advantages to their having the Euro (should they get it). Which is different from Greece/Spain.

Moreover, they want to be in the Euro :) the Swedes, Danes, English etc. chose to not use it.

Re: Scotland to seek second independence referendum

#282

Post by RobertoG »

akoncius wrote: post #264
RobertoG wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"currencies that a sovereign Scotland will not control" And that's the key thing. They would be changing masters, probably for the worst. As a former Euro supporter and now Euro sceptic I would recommend them to keep their lead in their own hand.

it's a bit offtopic, but I'm curious why you changed your opinion and became euro sceptic. Could you explain ?

Sure, I started to read about economy, and I think I have now a good understanding about how the system works. That changed my mind.

It's my believe now that my country just give away a very important part of their sovereignty (maybe the most important) to entities that have not our best interest in mind. I would not be against the Euro if I though that the people in charge is on my side.

As an example (even if I'm not greek), we have seen the ECB just closing the Greece bank system when they are supposed to protect it.

For anyone interested, there are some discussion now about the legality of that movement: https://diem25.org/thegreekfiles/

Re: Scotland to seek second independence referendum

#283

Post by ruairidhwm »

Boothroid wrote: post #274
ruairidhwm wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Disclaimer: I'm Scottish Really appreciate the well-wishing on it. I would love for there to still be a very open relationship between the two countries. We've got plenty of space up here and a booming tech scene! Agreed on clarification with the EU membership but I think this is something that the SNP have been working on and that we can expect to see follow-up announcements. Interesting times!

Let's be honest though, winter in Scotland is long, dark and miserable.

Can't argue with that! Winter is always coming...

Re: Scotland to seek second independence referendum

#284

Post by toor2 »

kingmanaz wrote: post #257
toor2 wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Globalist media monopoly" is a line often repeated by nationalist propaganda chanels and, unfortunately, most consumers of opinion are in a rush to disagree with anything that challenges their world view. I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with the parent comment about sinking ships. I'm simply pointing out how easy it is to form this type of meaningless rhetoric

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concentration_of_media_ownersh... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Media_cross-ownership_in_the_U... Challenge your worldview. The status quo is not a conspiracy.

I am not trying to make a political stance here. I don't disagree that the media is controlled by be an elite minority.

I was simply pointing out that the rhetoric you just spewed is meaningless in this context and contributed nothing of substance to the conversation.

I suppose I am at fault here as well. I shouldn't have given such a useless comment the dignity and value provided by a response.

Re: Scotland to seek second independence referendum

#285

Post by ruairidhwm »

mezod wrote: post #272
ruairidhwm wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hey - if I'm wrong then I'd love to be corrected as I'm currently labouring under the impression that Catalonia is legally a region of Spain and has been part of Spain since around 1469 which was when the concept of what we now know as Spain started. Not at all wanting a flame-war etc but if I'm wrong then I'd really like to know! :)

Sorry, I now realize my answer could appear to be rude when it wasn't my intention. The correct year to consider it fully a region of Spain would be 1714, when the Spanish army defeated the catalans and removed most of its state structures/institutions, etc. This article's intro might help: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principality_of_Catalonia I don't want to bore you with a history lesson that I myself might not k…

Ah that's really interesting, thanks!

I didn't mean any offence by my statement, I understand that of course Catalan's case for independence is no less valid! I suppose it's really just legal wrangling :)

Re: Scotland to seek second independence referendum

#286

Post by ruairidhwm »

Boothroid wrote: post #269
ruairidhwm wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure thing! So Catalonia has always been a region of Spain whereas Scotland is a sovereign nation which consented to joining the UK through the Act of Union. It's only part of the UK by a statute rather than inherently being part of the 'country'. That's why Britain is referred to politically as the United Kingdom as it's a union of countries. So for Catalonia to get independence, they have a much tougher argument as…

I think your logic is flawed. You have selected an arbitrary point in history, i.e. establishment of Spain as a sovereign entity, and used that to determine that Catalonia are not a sovereign entity. Couldn't you just as easily rewind your point a few years before establishment of Spain and say ok, Catalonia is a previously sovereign entity that was absorbed into Spain, and they merely want to revert to their previou…

Hey Boothroid

I've had that point corrected in another comment, so that's a fair position to take. I didn't intend to overly simplify a complex historic background.

I understand the sentiment of 'whinging Scots' and find it to be a real shame. Many of us are big fans of our English neighbours despite wanting independence. I guess it's a difference of opinion and always a very sensitive topic.

Either way, I'm sorry it's caused you to feel resentful of Scotland. Hopefully we can all reconcile our differences in the end.

Re: Scotland to seek second independence referendum

#287

Post by Boothroid »

matthewmacleod wrote: post #280
Boothroid wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you are using semantics to avoid the deeper issue. Call it what you like: there were plenty of documented examples of anti-English speech, intimidation and outright violence towards English people in Scotland during the Scottish referendum, and the SNP certainly didn't seem to try very hard to discourage the more wild eyed elements. Scotland's economy will be wrecked by leaving the UK as there will no longer…

That is a shallow and reductive approach to a rather complex constitutional issue. I don't doubt that there was strong anti-English sentiment among some groups in Scotland in 2014. However, there are always extreme elements to any political movement - the mainstream campaigns were open and constructive, and in my opinion it's a weasel argument to complain that "nothing was done to discourage" anti-English sentiment.…

I seem to remember plenty of noise from the SNP about how Brexit would/has unleashed racist forces, but apparently the same argument doesn't apply to Scottish independence because it's not possible to be racist towards the English.

Re: Scotland to seek second independence referendum

#288

Post by Symbiote »

restalis wrote: post #277
alistairSH wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whilst that doesn't seem to be the case in other parts of the world [corrections?] Some (many?) Americans would describe themselves as hailing from a specific state or city, not the nation. Personally, when traveling abroad, if asked where I'm from, I generally say "Washington DC", not "the US".

«Personally, when traveling abroad, if asked where I'm from, I generally say "Washington DC", not "the US".» Yeah, I've met people like you. The problem is, this asks from your interlocutor of awareness for internal USA geography knowledge. On the other hand, many of those "from San Francisco" or from somewhere alike expect you to be just "from Europe" instead of "Germany" (or any other national state with its own cu…

It doesn't need any extra knowledge, assuming people know Washington DC is in the USA. They're no worse off than if he says "the USA".

I often say "London". I don't like saying "England", I consider the whole UK to by my country, but "United Kingdom" or even "Britain" are often not understood, and in any case, "which city?" is almost always the next question.

There are exceptions. If I'm introducing myself to someone with very limited English, like a young child in a developing country, I'll say England.

Re: Scotland to seek second independence referendum

#289

Post by kingmanaz »

toor2 wrote: post #284
kingmanaz wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concentration_of_media_ownersh... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Media_cross-ownership_in_the_U... Challenge your worldview. The status quo is not a conspiracy.

I am not trying to make a political stance here. I don't disagree that the media is controlled by be an elite minority. I was simply pointing out that the rhetoric you just spewed is meaningless in this context and contributed nothing of substance to the conversation. I suppose I am at fault here as well. I shouldn't have given such a useless comment the dignity and value provided by a response.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delusion

Enjoy your delusion!

Re: Scotland to seek second independence referendum

#290

Post by vidarh »

cmdkeen wrote: post #139
vidarh wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They can't stop Scotland from keeping the pound. They can stop Scotland from issuing its own notes valid in the remaining parts of the UK, but there is no way for the UK government to unilaterally decide that Scottish businesses and persons can't use GBP - they will have no jurisdiction over them if Scotland becomes independent.

As I've said above they won't act as lender of last resort and they won't set monetary policy with regard to the needs of Scotland. A currency peg can be broken, though it is embarrassing and usually very expensive during the period you try and defend it - see "Black Wednesday". Sticking with Sterling wouldn't even allow the option of crashing out of the monetary peg if needs be. I think you'd see an exodus of financ…

Several valid points there, but none of them are relevant to what I pointed out, which was simply that if the Scottish government decides they want to use GBP, nobody can stop them (short of invading, I guess).
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