How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide • Hacker News Board

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#741

Post by wheelerwj » Sat, Mar 04, 2017, 2:53 PM UTC

charlesdm wrote: post #625

ForHackernews wrote: post #378

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't see how any entity (including Uber) has an obligation to make it easy for the law to ticket them. Corporate citizens have an obligation to obey the laws of the jurisdictions in which they operate. If they find the laws unacceptable, they should lobby to have them changed.

> Corporate citizens have an obligation to obey the laws of the jurisdictions in which they operate. To some extent. If the fine is $50 for each infraction, and you have $10bn in the bank, you really don't have to obey the law. You can lobby to have the law changed and not obey the law (if you are willing to pay any and all fines, while you are lobbying). Uber's use case didn't exist 10+ years ago, and as such, most…

> To some extent.

what?!??

no, you have always have an obligation to. Being obliged doesn't mean you're going to, but you do have an obligation.

> I personally find that to be a valid example of where it's applicable not to follow the law

oh great, now we all get to decide what laws we will or won't follow. is that really the precedent you are arguing for?

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#742

Post by wheelerwj » Sat, Mar 04, 2017, 2:58 PM UTC

odbol wrote: post #641

ForHackernews wrote: post #378

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't see how any entity (including Uber) has an obligation to make it easy for the law to ticket them. Corporate citizens have an obligation to obey the laws of the jurisdictions in which they operate. If they find the laws unacceptable, they should lobby to have them changed.

Let's also acknowledge that it's not just Uber the company skirting the law, it's also the millions of people who use their service. The people have spoken with their dollars instead of their votes.

lets also acknowledge that there are billions of people who are using their dollars to vote against uber by taking taxis, use lyft, take public transportation, purchae cars, walk, or ride their bike.

in other words, thats a terrible argument in support of uber.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#743

Post by DanBC » Sat, Mar 04, 2017, 2:59 PM UTC

misnome wrote: post #739

StephenConnell wrote: post #672

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you say that using an app to avoid speed traps is obstruction of justice? What about radar detectors?

Certainly it depends on which one of many jurisdictions Uber operates in. For a start, in the U.K. it's illegal to use radar detectors [Edit: this first is apparently false; they publically stated that they were going to, but never changed the law. Other countries apparently do ban them, according to wikipedia.], and people have been given criminal convictions for "Flashing their lights" in order to warn incoming mot…

Is it illegal to use either radar detectors or gps camera locators in England? What law is it?

I'd be interested in a link to the "flashing lights" case too.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#744

Post by wheelerwj » Sat, Mar 04, 2017, 3:13 PM UTC

h84hgihrgeg wrote: post #610

azernik wrote: post #580

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From my read of the article, abuse mitigation seems to have been an early motivation for some components of this feature - in markets where, for example, competitors would threaten Uber drivers with damage against person or vehicle. And then someone got the bright idea of who else they could shadowban...

A Philadelphia agency was caught teaming up with taxi companies to fight Uber http://www.vox.com/2016/1/30/10873372/uber-lyft-taxi-philade...

caught is a bit hyperbolic. Government agencies have every right to work with industry partners to promote, understand, and enforce regulation. This happens all day everyday in industries around the world. Uber isn't somehow exempt from that.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#745

Post by davidf18 » Sat, Mar 04, 2017, 3:17 PM UTC

There are laws that protect people from physical harm such as licensing for doctors or to keep people in certain fields from working too many hours (e.g. airline pilots and Emergency Room Doctors). There are laws that protect patents, copyrights, and other forms of IP so that inventors, writers can get some returns on their work.

Then there are laws put in place by special interest groups to benefit themselves economically creating a market inefficiency (e.g. "rent-seeking") at a cost to others. In NYC, before Uber/Lyft came on the market the was a political restriction ("rent seeking") of 13,000 hailable cabs throughout a city of population exceeding 8 million creating a politically-induced scarcity. At times it was hard to get cabs, the value of a Taxi medallion was $1.2 million.

Then Uber/Lyft/Gett/Via came along and hailable taxis are more readily available at lower costs but the value of the Taxi medallion is now less than $750,000. Naturally the medallion owners fought politically to protect their politically induced scarcity that harmed consumers in both availability and pricing.

Many of the laws that Uber is countering is in the form of "rent-seeking" laws that create a market inefficiency benefiting special interests and that harms consumers in terms of availability and price.

It is wrong that taxpayer money go into enforcing these laws that benefit special interests over consumers. Tax money on law enforcement should be spent fighting violent crime and activities that lead to violence crime, insider trading and other forms of white collar crime, etc.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#746

Post by someguydave » Sat, Mar 04, 2017, 3:20 PM UTC

yummyfajitas wrote: post #734

direfungasaur wrote: post #725

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are arbitrarily assigning Uber's disruption a positive social outcome, which appears to be the lynchpin of your argument. Your argument could be applied to many outcomes that would appear on the surface to be negative. A few (admittedly exaggerated) examples: "ArmzDealR is providing a great service by eliminating government bureaucracy and providing access to arms that citizens should have. It's good that they he…

I'm simply pointing out that Temporal's argument that breaking the law is always wrong is simply incorrect. I'm not saying all laws should be broken. I'm saying one must decide whether or not the law is just, and support those who break unjust laws. I see no one even attempting to make the argument that taxi protectionism laws are just. Do you have an argument that they are?

You do see the problem with encouraging the erosion of mutual social trust? If "following the law" collapses as a percieved social expectation it would impoverish everyone.

That being said, it is clear that abusive and overwraught law and regulation invites this impovrishment.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#747

Post by mmcwilliams » Sat, Mar 04, 2017, 3:21 PM UTC

a3n wrote: post #205

alphonsegaston wrote: post #46

What if local law enforcement officer was posing undercover as an Uber customer as part of a sexual assault investigation or trying to track down all drivers in relation to a recent crime? This is framed as getting around restrictions on taxi services, but any time you proactively thwart law enforcement, you're inviting a lot of dangerous unintended consequences. None of which I'm sure Uber is concerned about.

A sideways thought: this could be a good way for a criminal to vet someone before a meeting. "Take an Uber and meet me at 1st and Green."

Taking this further, it could be a useful way for larger criminal organizations to identify potential undercover officers that have infiltrated them. I'm sure now that this information is public it will make it easier for drug cartels and the like to isolate and "remove" certain individuals.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#748

Post by Filligree » Sat, Mar 04, 2017, 3:22 PM UTC

yummyfajitas wrote: post #734

direfungasaur wrote: post #725

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are arbitrarily assigning Uber's disruption a positive social outcome, which appears to be the lynchpin of your argument. Your argument could be applied to many outcomes that would appear on the surface to be negative. A few (admittedly exaggerated) examples: "ArmzDealR is providing a great service by eliminating government bureaucracy and providing access to arms that citizens should have. It's good that they he…

I'm simply pointing out that Temporal's argument that breaking the law is always wrong is simply incorrect. I'm not saying all laws should be broken. I'm saying one must decide whether or not the law is just, and support those who break unjust laws. I see no one even attempting to make the argument that taxi protectionism laws are just. Do you have an argument that they are?

Breaking the law always erodes the fabric of society. Normalizing it is worse.

Certainly, there can be laws that are worth breaking. You should be extremely careful before assuming that's the case in any given scenario, and I don't think taxi rules are it, no matter how dysfunctional the USA might be.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#749

Post by WildUtah » Sat, Mar 04, 2017, 3:36 PM UTC

actsasbuffoon wrote: post #715

hrasyid wrote: post #547

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But NYTimes might be mistaken in its reporing?

I doubt it. Reputable news sources require at least two independent sources before they'll print a story. If NYT didn't have multiple current or former employees telling them about this then you wouldn't be reading this story.

Hahahaha.

The New York Times is hardly a reliable source known to journalistic ethics or objectivity. It worked with Dubya Bush to push the Iraq war and worked hard to cover up Bush deliberately exposing intelligence agents through the newspaper in an attempt to get them killed for revealing malfeasance to Congress and the people.

They reversed their editorial position on the balance of immigration enforcement techniques immediately and completely upon accepting a billion dollar investment from the Mexican telecom monopolist Carlos Slim.

And their campaign and Trump and Russia coverage has been a jumble of lies, bias, and credulity for the past six months. Any given reporter or story may be fine, but depending on NY Times as an institution is just bad judgement.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#750

Post by wheelerwj » Sat, Mar 04, 2017, 3:38 PM UTC

davidf18 wrote: post #745

There are laws that protect people from physical harm such as licensing for doctors or to keep people in certain fields from working too many hours (e.g. airline pilots and Emergency Room Doctors). There are laws that protect patents, copyrights, and other forms of IP so that inventors, writers can get some returns on their work. Then there are laws put in place by special interest groups to benefit themselves econom…

You call it "rent seeking" but that's just not the case. Almost every law is founded in some sort of public interest. In 1937, NYC passed the Haas Act to clean up the taxi industry which had become so competitive that taxi drivers were not able to make ends meet (sound familiar?) and were turning to less than legal means to supplement their income.

While that law is 80 years old, its original principle was to provide a safer more reliable experience for the average person. And it worked. Should it be re-examined, yes absolutely. But to disregard it as "rent-seeking" and suggest that uber/lyft other tech startups shouldn't be subject to the same rules as everyone else is grossly negligent and demonstrates a true lack of understanding of the problem at hand.

Not to mention, this is entirely off topic from the Greyball tool.