How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide • Hacker News Board

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#721

Post by notahacker » Sat, Mar 04, 2017, 12:58 PM UTC

yummyfajitas wrote: post #718

steveax wrote: post #626

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Civil disobedience implies actions in the open and being willing to suffer the consequences of your actions. If Uber had made a public statement that they were instituting a policy to refuse service to city and law enforcement officials and were willing to take their lumps, you might have a point.

And uber does things in the open. They openly violate the law and reveal to citizens how much corrupt politicians are hurting them by taking away their transportation choices. This works only if it happens on a massive scale. If Uber didn't use this program, it's likely that their civil disobedience would end before it's large enough to get their message out.

It appears that other ridesharing apps have managed to "get the message out" without devising nefarious plots to confuse law enforcement. And for that matter despite various covert Uber-run attempts to sabotage their business and take away the public's transportation choices.

The idea that Uber is some civil liberties campaign for improved transportation options rather than a corporation with an unusually aggressive disregard for anyone that gets in their way is rather exploded by the most cursory examination of their actions.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#722

Post by yummyfajitas » Sat, Mar 04, 2017, 1:01 PM UTC

notahacker wrote: post #721

yummyfajitas wrote: post #718

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And uber does things in the open. They openly violate the law and reveal to citizens how much corrupt politicians are hurting them by taking away their transportation choices. This works only if it happens on a massive scale. If Uber didn't use this program, it's likely that their civil disobedience would end before it's large enough to get their message out.

It appears that other ridesharing apps have managed to "get the message out" without devising nefarious plots to confuse law enforcement. And for that matter despite various covert Uber-run attempts to sabotage their business and take away the public's transportation choices. The idea that Uber is some civil liberties campaign for improved transportation options rather than a corporation with an unusually aggressive…

Which other ridesharing apps have fixed broken political systems? From what I can see, most of them wait for Uber to fix politics and then just swoop in after the fact to make money.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#723

Post by rand77763 » Sat, Mar 04, 2017, 1:16 PM UTC

pyrale wrote: post #685

odbol wrote: post #639

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Laws take years, even decades to change. We'd never have any progress if every technological advancement had to wait for the law to catch up and regulate it.

We do have quite a lot of advancement which comes without violating the law. Also breaking the social canvas to correct something you feel is unfairly repressed/enforced is not something to do lightly. Let me give you an example here. I think Uber is a bad thing, but there's nothing I can do to oppose them, legally, that is. Should I carry out my own justice, illegally ? You can see that this pattern of thought quick…

God, I wish HN had a downvote button.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#724

Post by TeMPOraL » Sat, Mar 04, 2017, 1:17 PM UTC

yummyfajitas wrote: post #719

TeMPOraL wrote: post #472

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We are all better off because uber willfully disregarded these laws and regulations. The thing is, we're not. What we've got is a cab company that can offer better and cheaper service than everyone else because it's breaking the law, and it's good at throwing VC money at lawyers to avoid the consequences. What we've got is further damage to the respect for the rule of law and thus to the fabric of civilization, as…

Consider a hypothetical business in a historical era that provides great service by employing colored people to serve white customers. Imagine said business becomes successful, and even pushes some jurisdictions to change their laws against this practice. I'd argue that this business is great - it's helping consumers and fixing the world. One might argue that we are not better off because of this: The thing is, we're…

It's about the defaults. I believe laws should be obeyed by default, and only opposed in special circumstances. The burden of proving that the circumstances warrant disobedience should be on the disobedient party. And most importantly, breaking the law should be expensive, so that it never becomes a viable business strategy.

I'd even cut Uber some slack if they weren't so smug about what they're doing. This is just as much about breaking arbitrary laws as it is about how they keep showing that they don't give a shit about society.

> your argument is not dependent on the law being just or unjust. It completely ignores that point.

It does, because in real world, regulations are not uniformly distributed throughout the possibility space. In any working society you can - and should - assume that most laws are there for a reason, and that this reason is just. When that assumption doesn't hold, your country pretty much disintegrates. Hence, going against the law is a special case.

The way I see it, none of Uber's "innovations" actually required illegal actions. They simply don't care, because this way is faster and brings in more money.

As a proof of that I want to point out that many places in Europe managed to implement all those Uber "innovations" some time ago, and it didn't require breaking laws in the way Uber does. Sure, old cab companies were pissed, but things got settled in courts and regulations were updated - just like it should happen in any civilized society.

Ultimately, if Americans want to run their society this way, it's none of my business. I would be happy though, if they stopped exporting their "innovative" methods to countries with working regulatory frameworks.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#725

Post by direfungasaur » Sat, Mar 04, 2017, 1:26 PM UTC

yummyfajitas wrote: post #719

TeMPOraL wrote: post #472

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We are all better off because uber willfully disregarded these laws and regulations. The thing is, we're not. What we've got is a cab company that can offer better and cheaper service than everyone else because it's breaking the law, and it's good at throwing VC money at lawyers to avoid the consequences. What we've got is further damage to the respect for the rule of law and thus to the fabric of civilization, as…

Consider a hypothetical business in a historical era that provides great service by employing colored people to serve white customers. Imagine said business becomes successful, and even pushes some jurisdictions to change their laws against this practice. I'd argue that this business is great - it's helping consumers and fixing the world. One might argue that we are not better off because of this: The thing is, we're…

You are arbitrarily assigning Uber's disruption a positive social outcome, which appears to be the lynchpin of your argument. Your argument could be applied to many outcomes that would appear on the surface to be negative. A few (admittedly exaggerated) examples:

"ArmzDealR is providing a great service by eliminating government bureaucracy and providing access to arms that citizens should have. It's good that they help people avoid those onerous registration requirements."

"TraffiKR makes it easy to find cheap labor. There's no paperwork and the workers never complain!"

Are you willing to follow your argument where it leads? Should businesses be allowed to push against any rule at all? Are all laws 'unjust' or are there some laws that are in place to protect public good?

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#726

Post by tyingq » Sat, Mar 04, 2017, 1:27 PM UTC

Asooka wrote: post #675

tyingq wrote: post #514

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's closer to them saying, "Yes, sure...I'm happy to take money for sex...wait right here for a while", and then hiding. Which could be obstruction. If the app told them they were banned, it would be closer to your analogy. But, it shows fake cars circling about that never pick you up. It's actively deceiving law enforcement

Ah, but is it deceiving law enforcement with the knowledge that that person is right now trying to arrest you, or is it just refusing service to law enforcement because they don't like them? The latter is covered by the TOS where it says they can refuse service to anyone for whatever reason.

Fake cars circling around is pretty deliberate deception. I assume they have a more straightforward way to refuse service.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#727

Post by notahacker » Sat, Mar 04, 2017, 1:33 PM UTC

yummyfajitas wrote: post #722

notahacker wrote: post #721

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It appears that other ridesharing apps have managed to "get the message out" without devising nefarious plots to confuse law enforcement. And for that matter despite various covert Uber-run attempts to sabotage their business and take away the public's transportation choices. The idea that Uber is some civil liberties campaign for improved transportation options rather than a corporation with an unusually aggressive…

Which other ridesharing apps have fixed broken political systems? From what I can see, most of them wait for Uber to fix politics and then just swoop in after the fact to make money.

I don't think any ridesharing apps have "fixed broken political systems", least of all Uber. But there are many ridesharing apps which operated in local territories before Uber, and many of them managed to do it without writing software to deceive law enforcement, coordinating personal attacks on journalists who criticised them or trying to kill startup competitors with fake bookings.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#728

Post by chickenfries » Sat, Mar 04, 2017, 1:39 PM UTC

losteverything wrote: post #664

chickenfries wrote: post #660

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure I have good recommendations, I spend most of my time reading things on here since I quit reddit. My last sentence is tangential to the main point of my post, which is that Uber has earned all of it's scandals through their actions. This Greyball project is astounding, and it's no wonder that someone eventually leaked to the press about it. The point I was making about internet comments is that comments o…

My World has many periscopes. HN is a unique one. I like to find more.

I agree, I wish I had recommendations. HN's strong moderation seems to make it a unique place.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#729

Post by pharrington » Sat, Mar 04, 2017, 1:48 PM UTC

nikcub wrote: post #682

pharrington wrote: post #627

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My reply to aianus applies equally to this. Consider further; how did the narrative of Uber needing to break the law to disrupt (read: try to overthrow) the existing taxi industry morph into excusing their practices as affecting positive social change ? Remember, the context of the boycotts during the American civil rights movement was never to "disrupt" southern businesses.

Again, there are plenty of cities where Uber have been successful where they didn't break any laws. Likewise there are many cities that have banned Uber where they don't operate. The number of cities where they operate in a grey area of regulation are often few and often for short periods of time. Uber are more interested in operating in a regulated environment, hence all their lobbying and hence why their first hire…

"Ridden the coattails of the regulatory work that Uber has done"? I think the problem is that you have a very poor grasp of how the branches of US government (legislative in particular) interact with businesses, and thus don't really know how to distinguish among any agent that effects legislative change.

First learn about, and then read some commentaries on the functions and history of the three branches of US government. Then learn about how lobbying works, then read about the various rights movements that've occurred in the US.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#730

Post by mirimir » Sat, Mar 04, 2017, 2:04 PM UTC

codedokode wrote: post #623

aantix wrote: post #609

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Uber is fighting the man, in effort to capture $$$/market. That's their market. A business makes money? As much as you wouldn't like to admit, they've broken through a market that was once monopolized and the cities had zero interest in doing anything about it. You now have superior car ride services in part for the work they've done in the market. They have raised the bar.

But their competitors who comply with the law are losing now.

And who paid for the law to be created.