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How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

nytimes.com

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Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#671

Post by Gibbon1 »

george_ciobanu wrote: post #145
TillE wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, yes. Dan O'Sullivan (who spawned #DeleteUber) is a socialist and not shy about it. Of course he hates Uber for many reasons, all of which are entirely legitimate if you share his values. Always more enlightening to talk earnestly about differing values than suspecting some kind of hidden agenda or irrational bias.

Values can be nuanced. Yes to free market but guess what, it occasionally needs checks and balances because while it works for a particular company it might bring society as a whole down. Infrastructure like roads and electricity should not be controlled by a company because it's supposed to benefit everyone. Let's talk about Uber. Say they survive this situation and thrive as a business, taking over the global cab m…

This an example of what I consider the fatal (probably for us) defect of the neoliberal ideology. As implemented you end up with societal organizations being unable to engage in coherent policy and action.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#672

Post by StephenConnell »

wpietri wrote: post #654
avn2109 wrote: post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I seem to be the minority here, but I don't see how any entity (including Uber) has an obligation to make it easy for the law to ticket them. Anyone who uses e.g. the Waze app to evade speedtraps is similarly guilty of "systematically avoiding the law." Lastly, let me just disclaim that I think Uber is run by assholes and so is the police.

Obstruction of justice is a crime. So are lying to an FBI agent, destroying evidence, resisting arrest, evading arrest, falsifying business records, destruction of documents with intent to impede an investigation, and of course perjury. I don't know that any of these apply here, but yes, actively avoiding accountability is often a crime on its own. And correctly so, I'd say. Creating fake accounting records as a hobb…

Would you say that using an app to avoid speed traps is obstruction of justice? What about radar detectors?

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#674

Post by Asooka »

wpietri wrote: post #656
wpietri wrote: post #654

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Obstruction of justice is a crime. So are lying to an FBI agent, destroying evidence, resisting arrest, evading arrest, falsifying business records, destruction of documents with intent to impede an investigation, and of course perjury. I don't know that any of these apply here, but yes, actively avoiding accountability is often a crime on its own. And correctly so, I'd say. Creating fake accounting records as a hobb…

Oh, and if you're wondering about the moral case, I think it's pretty clear. When we the people set out to do something together, deciding to evade our joint decisions and mechanisms for self-regulation is an antisocial, antidemocratic act.

The government hasn't represented "we, the people" since forever, so all your arguments are void. It cannot be morally unlawful to resist a government that doesn't represent you.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#675

Post by Asooka »

tyingq wrote: post #514
yummyfajitas wrote: post #430

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not a lawyer, but I think you are making the wrong distinction. Fleeing a police officer is explicitly illegal, I believe the crime is resisting arrest or something equivalent. Actively telling all your hooker friends to stay home because the cops are out is not illegal. Nor is it illegal to say "oh hi there officer" before your hooker friend propositions a cop. That's basically what Uber did.

It's closer to them saying, "Yes, sure...I'm happy to take money for sex...wait right here for a while", and then hiding. Which could be obstruction. If the app told them they were banned, it would be closer to your analogy. But, it shows fake cars circling about that never pick you up. It's actively deceiving law enforcement

Ah, but is it deceiving law enforcement with the knowledge that that person is right now trying to arrest you, or is it just refusing service to law enforcement because they don't like them? The latter is covered by the TOS where it says they can refuse service to anyone for whatever reason.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#676

Post by skookumchuck »

LnxPrgr3 wrote: post #634
skookumchuck wrote: post #619

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And a judge ruled that Macy's did not have a legitimate power to do that. This example does not make the case that corporations have such power.

The law did grant them powers to run pieces of this scheme that a judge decided they took way too far. And they got to run it for years before a judge stopped it. And AFAIK no one running Macy's went to jail, so the penalty isn't the same as I'd get if I, say, imprisoned my neighbors and stole their credit cards to get payment for packages I think they stole from the porch.

They exceeded what they could legally do, and were stopped.

Contrast that with, say, civil forfeiture. Cops can stop you for little reason, and if they find cash in your car, they can take it. It's all perfectly legal. This is not theoretical, it happens all the time and enormous amounts of money are installed.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#677

Post by wpietri »

StephenConnell wrote: post #672
wpietri wrote: post #654

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Obstruction of justice is a crime. So are lying to an FBI agent, destroying evidence, resisting arrest, evading arrest, falsifying business records, destruction of documents with intent to impede an investigation, and of course perjury. I don't know that any of these apply here, but yes, actively avoiding accountability is often a crime on its own. And correctly so, I'd say. Creating fake accounting records as a hobb…

Would you say that using an app to avoid speed traps is obstruction of justice? What about radar detectors?

I'm not a lawyer, so I'd suggest you either ask one or form your own opinion: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obstruction_of_justice

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#678

Post by wpietri »

Asooka wrote: post #674
wpietri wrote: post #656

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, and if you're wondering about the moral case, I think it's pretty clear. When we the people set out to do something together, deciding to evade our joint decisions and mechanisms for self-regulation is an antisocial, antidemocratic act.

The government hasn't represented "we, the people" since forever, so all your arguments are void. It cannot be morally unlawful to resist a government that doesn't represent you.

You are welcome to your own opinions, but I disagree. I imagine most Americans would.

Regardless, if you have decided that the government doesn't represent the people, it makes your task harder. Unless you're just saying that you can do what you want (which doesn't strike me as much of a moral position) then you have to work to divine what the collective will of your fellow citizens is and honor that.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#679

Post by AstralStorm »

wav-part wrote: post #557
TeMPOraL wrote: post #509

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In real world (as opposed to theoretical libertarian utopia), voluntary market interactions aren't that common. People are trivially manipulated. Consider that the entire marketing industry is literally about taking away agency from one side of the business relationship.

Manipulation != Coercion. Yes both are problems but libertarianism claims to solve only one of those. For the other one, if you are unable, follow/place-your-trust-on someone else. There is no need to solve one problem by creating bigger problem.

Consent is not the same as informed consent. Libertarian utopia is ripe for getting people tricked and robbed while technically fulfilling contracts to the letter.

Consider what would happen in, say, medicine without the informed part.

And saying you can switch... Typically not due to availability, lack of information and monopolies.

The other question is who enforces these contracts and who prevents these people from abusing their means.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#680

Post by [deleted] »

us0r wrote: post #182
SilasX wrote: post #111

It took me about 8 paragraphs in to figure out what Greyball is, so to save you the time: Uber used various data sources to identify which people are likely government officials who are trying to collect incriminating data on them, and then blocks them from the service so they can't be caught in sting operations. But there's a lot in the article that doesn't make sense: >Other techniques included looking at the user’…

Maybe not a popular opinion but I find this entire thing pure genius. >I couldn't find a good source, but it doesn't seem like that's something a CC merchant would have access to. Do they really get to see that? The first 6 digits of a credit card can identify the issuing bank (BIN number - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Payment_card_number ). If you ask your merchant they can readily provide you and up to date list.…

[deleted]
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