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How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

nytimes.com

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Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#141

Post by anigbrowl »

HorizonXP wrote: post #6

How diabolical! In a world where privacy has been traded away for convenience, it's poetic justice where a startup uses data mining techniques to subvert the government. This is the same government that would have no issues to use the same techniques to spy on its own people for its own motives. I'm neither on Uber nor the government's side in this case, just simply making an observation. The lack of data privacy see…

This is the same government that would have no issues to use the same techniques to spy on its own people for its own motives.

Local government is not the same as the NSA. Quit with these fallacies of composition.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#142

Post by accountface »

striglia wrote: post #35

So I ask this mostly out of horrified curiosity -- is there any negative press or revelation that could actually sink Uber at this point? What would it take for the company to fail? We've seen: * Systematic flouting of laws in public * Even further hidden avoiding of laws * Sexism complaints across the board * What appears to be a pervasive toxic culture, inspired (if not explicitly encouraged) straight from the CEO'…

They're trying to become too big to fail, but aren't quite there yet.

Essentially they're undercutting all competitors by artificially keeping fares very low and subsidizing drivers. Subsidies were the primary source of their enormous financial losses in 2016.

Once the competition is completely gone (local cabs, and Lyft in some areas), then they can stop subsidizing themselves and basically hold a monopoly. It's their entire strategy.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#143

Post by TAForObvReasons »

spitfire wrote: post #107

Lets not forget that YC has endorsed Uber multiple times in public statements. When YC says "be naughty" this is what they mean. They'll try to distance themselves from this now, but their statements were "be naughty" while holding up AirBnB and Uber as examples to be proud of. Take what you will from that.

> holding up AirBnB

With AirBnB they went one step further: they invested in it. AirBnB is one of YC's biggest winners.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#144

Post by hackuser »

oculusthrift wrote: post #8

I'm not excusing Uber at all because what they've done is extremely bad in multiple cases but find it strange all these hit pieces are coming out of the wood works. There is a large section of society that hates Uber and will spring at any chance to bring it down. Which is partially what I think happened with the whole #boycottUber thing and the new video of kalanick yelling at the driver. However, the sexism and dys…

> It almost starts to undermine the case against them when there are all these hit jobs coming out and it starts to seem that the media is biased or relishing their fall.

Think of what this means: The more a business (or anyone) does wrong, then the more news stories there are about them doing wrong ... then more likely it is that the news stories are 'hit jobs'. You can see how that doesn't work.

Everyone subject to criticism by the news media calls it a 'hit job', reporter bias, or something similar. I see nothing in this story that suggests such a thing; this seems like a serious problem and the allegations are seem well-supported.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#145

Post by george_ciobanu »

TillE wrote: post #37
oculusthrift wrote: post #8

I'm not excusing Uber at all because what they've done is extremely bad in multiple cases but find it strange all these hit pieces are coming out of the wood works. There is a large section of society that hates Uber and will spring at any chance to bring it down. Which is partially what I think happened with the whole #boycottUber thing and the new video of kalanick yelling at the driver. However, the sexism and dys…

Well, yes. Dan O'Sullivan (who spawned #DeleteUber) is a socialist and not shy about it. Of course he hates Uber for many reasons, all of which are entirely legitimate if you share his values. Always more enlightening to talk earnestly about differing values than suspecting some kind of hidden agenda or irrational bias.

Values can be nuanced. Yes to free market but guess what, it occasionally needs checks and balances because while it works for a particular company it might bring society as a whole down. Infrastructure like roads and electricity should not be controlled by a company because it's supposed to benefit everyone.

Let's talk about Uber. Say they survive this situation and thrive as a business, taking over the global cab market. Imagine they also perfect self-driving cars and next month they fire all the drivers. Suddenly you have a company of ~10,000 people getting all the money from all rides around the world. And most of the money goes to the executives and a few thousand shareholders.

You now have a group of millions of people unable to make a living, and support their families. Apply this to all jobs that require mostly drivers (trucking, busses etc) and we just destroyed ~10 million jobs (including supporting infrastructure) in the US alone.

These people need to make a living - if Uber ends up paying super low tax (compared to what it displaces) we have a huge number of people making no money and a few getting all of it.

Civil unrest follows naturally (in one form or another) and you end up with either 1. Segmented civilization with a few people defending their wealth with hired guns 2. Social reform - guaranteed basic income for a while, but long term? 3. Revolution where the mob takes over and the outcome is anyone's guess - an extreme form of socialism?

It's not just about values, a lot of it is about long-term thinking.

Which of the three outcomes is better may be a question of values - is it better that a few people do super well and everyone else suffers, or most do pretty well?

Without some social stability and wellness companies cannot function - people need money to pay with, and without jobs there's not much money to go around.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#146

Post by snappyTertle »

eridius wrote: post #74
lacampbell wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't like the US government much, but I like it a lot better than the average multinational. When it comes down to it, we don't have more than our choice of devils. If I don't like Uber, I can... stop using Uber. What can I do if I don't like the service a state provides - can I opt out and stop paying? No, my only option is to flee - which the state will often try and prevent you doing anyway. The state is a huge…

Did you just make the argument that the government enforcing the laws is immoral?

If the law is immoral, wouldn't forcing people to follow something immoral be immoral?

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#147

Post by skookumchuck »

frgtpsswrdlame wrote: post #96
lacampbell wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't like the US government much, but I like it a lot better than the average multinational. When it comes down to it, we don't have more than our choice of devils. If I don't like Uber, I can... stop using Uber. What can I do if I don't like the service a state provides - can I opt out and stop paying? No, my only option is to flee - which the state will often try and prevent you doing anyway. The state is a huge…

>What can I do if I don't like the service a state provides You can vote. >The state is a huge corporation No.

A vote is not the same thing as a choice.

For example, I can choose to buy steak or ham. But voting on whether the government store provides steak or ham, that isn't the same thing at all.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#148

Post by harryh »

striglia wrote: post #35

So I ask this mostly out of horrified curiosity -- is there any negative press or revelation that could actually sink Uber at this point? What would it take for the company to fail? We've seen: * Systematic flouting of laws in public * Even further hidden avoiding of laws * Sexism complaints across the board * What appears to be a pervasive toxic culture, inspired (if not explicitly encouraged) straight from the CEO'…

They will succeed or fail based upon their ability to attract customers and sell a product at a profit. I suspect most customers don't care about any of your bullet points. They care if Uber can get them where they want to go faster and/or cheaper than other options.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#149

Post by chris_wot »

SilasX wrote: post #111

It took me about 8 paragraphs in to figure out what Greyball is, so to save you the time: Uber used various data sources to identify which people are likely government officials who are trying to collect incriminating data on them, and then blocks them from the service so they can't be caught in sting operations. But there's a lot in the article that doesn't make sense: >Other techniques included looking at the user’…

I'd like to see them subpoenaed to explain what they were doing. They were deliberately violating the law, and trying to avoid detection just makes things much, much worse.

This has got to be illegal.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#150

Post by omouse »

maldusiecle wrote: post #24
HorizonXP wrote: post #6

How diabolical! In a world where privacy has been traded away for convenience, it's poetic justice where a startup uses data mining techniques to subvert the government. This is the same government that would have no issues to use the same techniques to spy on its own people for its own motives. I'm neither on Uber nor the government's side in this case, just simply making an observation. The lack of data privacy see…

My perspective is the opposite. In a world where large multinationals have the power to evade the law in a deliberate and systematic way like this, it's easy for governments to claim they need the same kind of power. Things like this are exactly what bureaucrats point to when they make their arguments for a surveillance state. I don't like the US government much, but I like it a lot better than the average multinatio…

The next step is the tech becomes available to everyone; unfortunately that won't happen anytime soon when it's so lucrative to create tools that can only be used large teams and megacorps/multinationals.
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