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Buried Alive: Stories from Inside Solitary Confinement

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Re: Buried Alive: Stories from Inside Solitary Confinement

#101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Normally, I don't tend to get involved in HN talks about religion/Christianity, but I'm going to make an exception this time. As someone who is a Christian (I define as a "follower of Christ", not just as someone who follows some set of rules) I actually find the common misconception that "behaving badly" getting you thrown in Hell or "behaving well" gets you a ticket into Heaven to be one of the greatest, and saddes…

Christianity is even odder than that, comparatively to the pretty much every other philosophy. You only need to repent (not that it's a small thing). That's it. The story of the prodigal son shows this. Total fuck up son gets accepted back just because he repents. Doesn't do anything. The father just accepts him. The legalistic, I-did-everything-for-you son didn't have to do the works. His works didn't matter. The fa…

I temporarily attended a "born-again" church at age 18, whose patrons partook in trying to harass me by being "empowered" with information about what they speculated was my private thought process. In other words, a patron tried to make it seem like they had a connection to "Jesus Christ" or "God" or whatever it's called, and used that against me to demonstrate what was ostensibly a "power" they had over me in reading my mind through their god. They did this by harassing me via looking at me during a sermon, and telling me what they thought was on my mind at the time from the perspective of a reaction by their god to my thought at that time channeled through them. This served absolutely to alienate me from Christianity.

The same church strongly recommended to me that following Jesus Christ was more important than attending University.

I've observed many other anecdotes suggesting there is a strong connection between Christian-empowered "do anything you want, you'll get your eternal golden box", and sitting on one's okole. Of course, the world contains a seemingly never ending series of contradicting beliefs. Observe Pope Francis warning certain groups of assured eternal torture, which is in conflict with the idea of "accepting Jesus Christ as your personal savior just prior to death, and you will get into Heaven" belief system.

Regarding Christianity or other belief systems that involve eternal torture for humans: The whole notion of eternal punishment as existing for at least one human being in a future offspring that a human partakes in creating is simply absurd, with logical consequences that go beyond acceptable public rational discussion for the future of humanity. Such discussion would perhaps best occur at the deepest levels of international security as it pertains to both our survival, and our protection from any type of eternal torture that could be possible by a higher intelligence. Although, if a higher intelligence wished to create/simulate life and torture it eternally, even human extinction from our perspective wouldn't serve to stop it. Thus, simulating universes truly does carry eternal responsibility.

What's crazy is that this idea of religions as an underlying truth cannot really be proven or disproven, at least not for the current state of evolution for humanity. For instance, it's simply impossible to differentiate between a reality where Christianity is the truth, and a reality where a higher intelligence has control over reality of humans enough to make it impossible to know the higher intelligence is creating a complete perception of reality where Christianity (as part of this same example) is the truth. The human experiencing this would be unable to tell the difference.

Ultimately, a human, with their limited perception, simply has to formulate their own beliefs about the nature of the reality which they are presented. There is no Trinity nor Morpheus to free your mind -- at least there hasn't been for me, personally. We are limited by our ability to perceive and fill in gaps on our short-term first-person experiences, coupled with whatever programming/information we receive from our parents.

I'd like to believe I am not the only human to have a deep account of a reality containing signs of an enigmatic higher intelligence that seems very clearly to exist in this reality in some form or fashion. The existence of an intricate trail system of religion entrenched throughout our history speaks to this, truly.

To me, the fascination lies in cracking the code via ever-improving scientific understanding of reality in a way that fits with my personal experience in this short life. It's not that I don't believe in Jesus Christ as a personal savior. Rather, I just believe that the reality I am presented is really happening, and I attempt to fill in the gaps to the best of my perceptive abilities, the same as every other human being.

On a side note, I know of Christians that believe that "Jesus Christ stalks you". I find this to be dangerous dogma to spread, as it potentially empowers people or entities to stalk others. It justifies other malicious behaviors. It's extraordinarily dangerous to participate in stalking / harassing someone with the intent of trying to influence their belief system, because some people question the underlying nature of their reality and will easily misperceive any such stalking/harassment as a form of malice. These dangers have clear parallels to our centralized digital age.

Sorry for the free form digression.

Re: Buried Alive: Stories from Inside Solitary Confinement

#102
post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The logic is based on the needs of any society. Every society needs a set of rules which everyone agrees to follow. History shows that the smaller the set of rules, the better, but you need to at least prevent people from infringing the life and liberty of others. The simple reason for retribution is deterrence: there should be a negative incentive to committing crimes. The deeper reason is to make the kind of world…

> if people are determined by outside forces, so are judges and prison guards, false equivalency. people are determined by very different outside forces, and thats precisely why some people aren't deserving of the same levels of "moral judgement".

The fundamental point is that if determinism is true then morality is meaningless. I think we have free will.

(This will probably be a controversial point on HN so to expand a little: I think consciousness is both non-mystical and non-material - the mind is entirely natural, mind and matter interact, but the mind is not the same as the brain, and is not made of atoms. Qualia and the binding problem [1] cannot be explained in material terms. Furthermore, if our thoughts are merely deterministic neurons firing, then we don't have any reliable knowledge of reality, making any debate meaningless).

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binding_problem#The_combinatio...

Re: Buried Alive: Stories from Inside Solitary Confinement

#103
post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The logic is based on the needs of any society. Every society needs a set of rules which everyone agrees to follow. History shows that the smaller the set of rules, the better, but you need to at least prevent people from infringing the life and liberty of others. The simple reason for retribution is deterrence: there should be a negative incentive to committing crimes. The deeper reason is to make the kind of world…

I'm actually not arguing for an absence of punishment, but rather against punishments whose only end is retribution. Things like solitary confinement, mandatory minimums, inhumane conditions, forced prison labor and more, all very normalized within the US criminal justice system, are all suspect practices whose only definite result is an increase in suffering. Punishment could be educational and rehabilitative (and s…

People do respond to incentives. Deterrence isn't just about the severity of punishments but also the probability of being caught. The US justice system (I'm not an American) seems to have the worst of both worlds were many people evade justice and others are hit with overly harsh sentences. Countries with effective police forces (e.g. Japan, Singapore) have very low crime rates.

Rehabilitation makes sense for petty criminals and economic criminals, and possibly "crimes of passion". Some individuals are simply beyond redemption, though. I'd say attempting to "rehabilitate" anyone at category 11 or above on the following scale [1] is an injustice to their victims. People like Charles Manson [2] are capable of retreating into a delusional fantasy world and never acknowledge what they've done.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Most_Evil#Scale_and_criminals (warning: no graphics, but extremely unpleasant content)

[2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E-qWLlER1N0 (Manson starts one of his monologues at about 8:20)

Re: Buried Alive: Stories from Inside Solitary Confinement

#104
post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> if people are determined by outside forces, so are judges and prison guards, false equivalency. people are determined by very different outside forces, and thats precisely why some people aren't deserving of the same levels of "moral judgement".

The fundamental point is that if determinism is true then morality is meaningless. I think we have free will. (This will probably be a controversial point on HN so to expand a little: I think consciousness is both non-mystical and non-material - the mind is entirely natural, mind and matter interact, but the mind is not the same as the brain, and is not made of atoms. Qualia and the binding problem [1] cannot be expl…

nice retreat into philosophical fantasy-land. doesn't do much about reality where crime occurs.

Re: Buried Alive: Stories from Inside Solitary Confinement

#105
post #82
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really, how many people get to stay DECADES in prison? In Brazil the most horrible crimes have a de facto threshold of 6 years in jail.

Generally speaking, those who commit violent felonies are relatively likely to serve sentences like that. So rapists, murders and that sort of thing. Part of the rationale is that it keeps people who willingly do such things away from society. So it's not simply punitive (and there's very little in the way of rehabilitation), it's more a matter of keeping them away from new victims. A point frequently lost in these c…

Yes, that's what I always say too. And it is a strong argument.

But still, in Brasil take 4 years and murderers 6 years in jail.

Re: Buried Alive: Stories from Inside Solitary Confinement

#106
post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, I would've certainly felt better knowing that the guy who robbed me got punished.

Note that we're talking about a justice system that rehabilitates vs. one that punishes. Do you care which one happens to the perp, with the knowledge that they will be back in society at some point?

Why do we have to choose between rehabilitation and punishment? The goal should be "If you did the crime, you will be punished, but while you're being punished, we can help you become a better person".

Re: Buried Alive: Stories from Inside Solitary Confinement

#107
post #81
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely - I acknowledge that. But at this point, I assert that we need to deprive the system of labor, especially from good people. I think it's a very legitimate form of protest.

> But at this point, I assert that we need to deprive the system of labor, especially from good people You are delusional. You want to reform the prison system by only hiring bad people to run it?

I have expressly said that I don't want to "reform" the prison system. I used the word "smash" - I'm not sure how much further from "reform" you can get.

I want prisons gone completely from this land, as they were for most of our history.

Re: Buried Alive: Stories from Inside Solitary Confinement

#108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a bleeding heart liberal, but: > Do these people not think > about how cruel solitary > confinement is? If it was effective, and its use wasn't at a guard's whim, I wouldn't really care. But it's not effective, and there doesn't appear to be proper oversight, and that's what upsets me.

Sorry, I don't care what you label yourself as, but if you think it's justifiable to use cruel punishment as long as its "effective", you might be a bit morally defective. Torture is a human rights violation.

You think a punishment is bad when it crosses a certain arbitrary severity threshold. I think a punishment is bad when it's ineffective, its application doesn't benefit society as a whole, and when there's no oversight.

A morality that's consistent, dependable, and based on greater good to society is rather more useful than one based on arbitrary feels.

Re: Buried Alive: Stories from Inside Solitary Confinement

#109
post #69
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have sailed across the Atlantic, alone, in a small (9.3m) yacht. 29 days alone with nothing much to see except what is close by (the sea, is.. unchanging, but ever changing). The solitude did not bother me though others have said it would bother them, but then I was more or less in control of my destiny. I had no option to abort (technically, I guess I could have called a ship on the radio and claimed an emergency)…

Also, being in nature is a deep and positive experience, so it might compensate for loneliness.

Personally, I don't find loneliness a serious problem and I think that is behind a lot of folks idea that solitary confinement wouldn't really be a problem. On my voyage, I was marking the chart with my daily position and could see the distance to destination getting smaller, which gives me a measure of control, of marking the difference between the days.

Those in solitary are just waiting - even if they end up getting out after a month, they have no way of knowing that will happen. Well, in Europe perhaps they do since largely there are finite limits - and where those limits are exceeded, I would hope the treatment is not as the folk in the article claimed they had been treated. Even for Breivik we can treat him humanely even if we cannot let him out.

Re: Buried Alive: Stories from Inside Solitary Confinement

#110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, so let's torture the mentally ill patients to save a bit of tax money. Seems like the right solution.

Nah you're right, let's just make you pay for it all. Much better solution.

If you want to deny someone freedoms for whatevery reason, the least you can do is pay for it properly.
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