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How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

nytimes.com

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Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#91

Post by DannyBee »

harryh wrote: post #72
DannyBee wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Q: What sorts of acts may constitute obstruction of justice? A: Obstruction may consist of any attempt to hinder the discovery, apprehension, conviction or punishment of anyone who has committed a crime. Q: Does obstruction of justice always involve bribery or physical force? A: No. One particularly murky category of obstruction is the use of "misleading conduct" toward another person for the purpose of obstructing…

Isn't obstruction of justice something that happens after a crime has been committed? If I'm a thief and I do my thieving in the middle of the night when no one is around that's an attempt to hinder discovery but it's not obstruction of justice (I don't think?). Similarly if Uber is operating illegally in a city and they use software to avoid picking up a city official in a sting operation that doesn't sound like obs…

IAAL (but i've only done small amount of criminal work).

A crime has been committed, even if they don't pick up the officials. If uber is operating illegally, the drivers that have picked anyone up have committed a crime.

Keeping the cars away from the officials trying to ticket and prosecute those drivers is the obstruction.

That is, it's not the "avoiding sting" that causes it to be obstruction, because the crime was committed the second a driver picked someone up. Instead, the obstruction is "helping drivers who have committed crimes not be noticed, ticketed, or prosecuted"

That's definitely obstruction in jurisdictions that have this form of obstruction.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#92

Post by Terr_ »

rrdharan wrote: post #58
mikeash wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Displaying ghost cars and false cancellations strikes me as fraud, at the very least.

I kind of doubt it. It's not like you enter into a contract with Uber just by downloading the app, and I don't think you have a legal right to use their services. Maybe you could drum up some sort of civil rights violation? But I don't think law enforcement is actually a protected class...

> It's not like you enter into a contract with Uber just by downloading the app

Ahh, but Uber themselves say you ARE!

"By accessing or using the Services, you confirm your agreement to be bound by these Terms..."

It'd be incredibly amusing to watch their lawyers try to argue it both ways though. They'd have to either admit that they did have a contract, or they'd have to completely tear up their terms-of-service.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#93

Post by tyingq »

yestoallthat wrote: post #47
oculusthrift wrote: post #8

I'm not excusing Uber at all because what they've done is extremely bad in multiple cases but find it strange all these hit pieces are coming out of the wood works. There is a large section of society that hates Uber and will spring at any chance to bring it down. Which is partially what I think happened with the whole #boycottUber thing and the new video of kalanick yelling at the driver. However, the sexism and dys…

While I don't like the company either, I wouldn't be surprised if competing companies had some PR peeps trying to stoke the flames. Why would they pass it up?

Stoking the flames, perhaps, but...

"Greyball and the broader VTOS program were described to The New York Times by four current and former Uber employees"

The employees, current and former, are lighting the fires.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#94

Post by csours »

HorizonXP wrote: post #6

How diabolical! In a world where privacy has been traded away for convenience, it's poetic justice where a startup uses data mining techniques to subvert the government. This is the same government that would have no issues to use the same techniques to spy on its own people for its own motives. I'm neither on Uber nor the government's side in this case, just simply making an observation. The lack of data privacy see…

The difference is that the government gets REALLY pissed when you use their playbook, and they can do something about it.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#95

Post by chickenfries »

oculusthrift wrote: post #23
colemickens wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Comments like this confuse me. Are you accusing the author of fabricating facts? Do you contest the facts or testimonies in the article? What is the justification for calling this a "hit piece"? Did you actually read it? Why is it surprising that a company under the spotlight... winds up with more journalistic investigations?

Do you not think the boycottUber thing was a little overblown? What about releasing the video of Kalanick being illegally recorded and framing it as him "exploding" when he was relatively calm? All I'm saying is that focuses on silly stuff like that undermines the larger disturbing cases of law breaking and sexism.

Why not assume people are being genuine? Uber has done tons of things to piss people off. I think people in the HN bubble forget that the majority of the country has never been in a ride share. Talk to some blue collar people. Talk to some taxi drivers. Talk to drivers who left Uber. You might find that they aren't as sympathetic to Kalanick as people on HN are. HN in general has more sympathy for corporations and billionaires than I've seen anywhere else on the internet.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#96

Post by frgtpsswrdlame »

lacampbell wrote: post #68
maldusiecle wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My perspective is the opposite. In a world where large multinationals have the power to evade the law in a deliberate and systematic way like this, it's easy for governments to claim they need the same kind of power. Things like this are exactly what bureaucrats point to when they make their arguments for a surveillance state. I don't like the US government much, but I like it a lot better than the average multinatio…

I don't like the US government much, but I like it a lot better than the average multinational. When it comes down to it, we don't have more than our choice of devils. If I don't like Uber, I can... stop using Uber. What can I do if I don't like the service a state provides - can I opt out and stop paying? No, my only option is to flee - which the state will often try and prevent you doing anyway. The state is a huge…

>What can I do if I don't like the service a state provides

You can vote.

>The state is a huge corporation

No.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#97

Post by alphonsegaston »

eridius wrote: post #79
alphonsegaston wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, all these "hit pieces" cooked up by Uber employees because of their ethics are really undermining the case against Uber. /s If anything, I have greater respect for Uber employees after this series of leaks than I did before.

Wait what? How does that make any sense? Edit: This comment was written before the parent added the /s tag.

Most of the Uber employees I've interacted with have taken a quite cynical "who gives a fuck - IPO" stance or will rationalize away their behavior to an absurd degree. With this series of leaks from current and former Uber employees, I'm glad to see that there are more ethical people at Uber than I had previously thought.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#98

Post by dralley »

MegaButts wrote: post #78
jobu wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's definitely some piling on by former employees and reporters. It seems to be a bit of a human trait, and I remember some of this happening to Amazon in the wake of the NY Times piece a couple years ago ( https://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/16/technology/inside-amazon-... ). That said, the dirt coming from Uber seems to be a lot worse and a lot more widespread for a company that is 1/30th the size of what Amazon wa…

> That said, the dirt coming from Uber seems to be a lot worse and a lot more widespread for a company that is 1/30th the size of what Amazon was 2 years ago. I assume this is ignoring drivers? Surely if you include the contractors the size difference isn't so stark. I would actually expect Uber to be larger, but I don't know.

But "they're contractors, not employees", remember. That's why Uber doesn't have to take any responsibility for their actions.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#99

Post by DannyBee »

It says uber legal approved this, but uber legal is mostly corporate and ip counsel.

I strongly doubt they had anyone with significant criminal experience look at this, because i have trouble seeing someone not immediately saying "you're joking,right? Are you stupid?"

(unless they were a canonical tv mob lawyer)

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#100

Post by nemacol »

lacampbell wrote: post #68
maldusiecle wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My perspective is the opposite. In a world where large multinationals have the power to evade the law in a deliberate and systematic way like this, it's easy for governments to claim they need the same kind of power. Things like this are exactly what bureaucrats point to when they make their arguments for a surveillance state. I don't like the US government much, but I like it a lot better than the average multinatio…

I don't like the US government much, but I like it a lot better than the average multinational. When it comes down to it, we don't have more than our choice of devils. If I don't like Uber, I can... stop using Uber. What can I do if I don't like the service a state provides - can I opt out and stop paying? No, my only option is to flee - which the state will often try and prevent you doing anyway. The state is a huge…

You can vote, run for office, petition, volunteer, protest,etc to the local, state, and federal government to have policies that reflect your values. The only thing you can do with Uber is use it or not. Maybe you could write Uber a letter.

You have a say in government - that is its stated goal and purpose. Of the people for the people.

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