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A majority of millennials now reject capitalism, poll shows

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Re: A majority of millennials now reject capitalism, poll shows

#91
post #78
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Society has to decide what "right" people have to a certain minimum quality of life and access to services. It turns out the level can actually be quite high, one only need look to the highly successful Nordic states. The argument in america seems to be that if you work hard, you can have a decent life and a house in the suburbs. There are already problems here, what of the people born with disabilities? But assuming…

You're still making the "standard of living" argument that is essentially hypocritical when you think about it globally. You are extremely privileged to be born in the USA, rich or poor. Also, you would realistically need to be taxed more like 80-95% to get to the global mean.

So the ultra rich should grow wealthier faster than middle class Americans because there are poorer countries in the world? Absurd.

Re: A majority of millennials now reject capitalism, poll shows

#92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Minimum wage sets a floor which affects wages close to it, too.

Let me try a different tack. Wages used to go up without relying on minimum wage. Wages have flattened, so there are a bunch of other issues that should be looked at before just forcing wages up, which can have all sorts of unintended consequences, especially if the real reasons wages are flat aren't addressed first.

You're right. Raising or lowering minimum wage purchasing power is worthy of caution, but having minimum wage track inflation is an economic no-op, not a shift in policy.

Re: A majority of millennials now reject capitalism, poll shows

#93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you believe that when we all lived in huts that the feudal lord would send out knights to defend you if your neighbor decided to take your property?

Under a medieval feudal system, most people did not own property the way we think of it today; the feudal lord did. If the lord wanted to take all your clothes and throw you off their land, they could, with impunity. That said, yes, the feudal lord's band of merry thugs would keep the peace, because peasants can work harder if they're not squabbling with each other.

>Under a medieval feudal system

You don't have to go that far back in time:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patroon

Re: A majority of millennials now reject capitalism, poll shows

#94
post #74
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> meanwhile those struggling from inequality, not being here, will fail to have their voice heard. And so the echo chamber ensues. Those struggling from from inequality are struggling from relative deprivation, not absolute deprivation, while the latter is the only thing that rationally matters. I don't give a damn that Bill Gates is a ridiculous amount richer than me, in fact I admire him and want to be rich too som…

Society has to decide what "right" people have to a certain minimum quality of life and access to services. It turns out the level can actually be quite high, one only need look to the highly successful Nordic states. The argument in america seems to be that if you work hard, you can have a decent life and a house in the suburbs. There are already problems here, what of the people born with disabilities? But assuming…

Why does any single person deserve the enormous amount of power that being so absurdly wealthy can bring?

Re: A majority of millennials now reject capitalism, poll shows

#95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Minimum wage sets a floor which affects wages close to it, too.

Let me try a different tack. Wages used to go up without relying on minimum wage. Wages have flattened, so there are a bunch of other issues that should be looked at before just forcing wages up, which can have all sorts of unintended consequences, especially if the real reasons wages are flat aren't addressed first.

So the choices are wait for the economy to suddenly unfuck itself or give our lowest earners am immediate boost?

Re: A majority of millennials now reject capitalism, poll shows

#96
post #94
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Society has to decide what "right" people have to a certain minimum quality of life and access to services. It turns out the level can actually be quite high, one only need look to the highly successful Nordic states. The argument in america seems to be that if you work hard, you can have a decent life and a house in the suburbs. There are already problems here, what of the people born with disabilities? But assuming…

Why does any single person deserve the enormous amount of power that being so absurdly wealthy can bring?

So they can get us to Mars? So they can cure malaria? Obviously doesn't apply to all of the riches.

Re: A majority of millennials now reject capitalism, poll shows

#98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let me try a different tack. Wages used to go up without relying on minimum wage. Wages have flattened, so there are a bunch of other issues that should be looked at before just forcing wages up, which can have all sorts of unintended consequences, especially if the real reasons wages are flat aren't addressed first.

You're right. Raising or lowering minimum wage purchasing power is worthy of caution, but having minimum wage track inflation is an economic no-op, not a shift in policy.

it's not an economic no-op, because then the fight begins over who gets to measure inflation. Moreover, if the tracking isn't continuous (which it can't possibly be), during the 'between periods' there's wage devaluation which disproportionately affect the poor.

The WHOLE POINT of inflation is that it screws over wageearners:

https://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/02/13/the-case-for-hi...

"even in the long run, it’s really, really hard to cut nominal wages. Yet when you have very low inflation, getting relative wages right would require that a significant number of workers take wage cuts. So having a somewhat higher inflation rate would lead to lower unemployment, not just temporarily, but on a sustained basis."

Re: A majority of millennials now reject capitalism, poll shows

#99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

alright. I'll bite. I have made almost no money in the past year, and my bank account is nearly zero. I had a relatively middle class upbringing (but for reasons I'd rather not go into) my family is currently bankrupt. Capitalism (in the free markets sense) is great. The problem is that gobs of money are stolen from poor people like me by the government through various processes, the biggest of which is inflation. Th…

Inflation is useful and is not stealing if the rate of inflation is communicated and stable. If the government decided to suddenly devalue it's currency for the sole purpose of reducing it's debt burden then it could be construed as stealing. If the government communicated that it will devalue its currency at a fixed 2% every year it's not stealing because individuals are able to account for it. Why is inflation usef…

let's reframe your statements:

> 1. Hold on to money because it would increase in value over time

"disincentivize poor people from saving"

> 2. Not make purchases because the object being purchased will require fewer units of money over time.

"push poor people into consuming"

> 3. Not invest in starting new businesses because the investor would be losing out on the guaranteed income from holding onto the money along with the fact that whatever the business sells will be worth fewer units of money over time

"Benefit rich people who seek to invest in venture capital"

> 4. Disincentivize individuals to take out loans to start businesses because the value of the loan will increase in price over time.

"make it easier for people to sell themselves into debt slavery"

> 1. The burden of debt decreases over time

"make it cheaper for leveraged investments, de facto restricted to a small class of investors, to exist"

> 2. People are incentivized to invest their money into business

"push middle class people into subsidizing risky behavior by capitalists"

The reason why I am reframing your statements in this way is because a general policy of inflation affects everyone, and by and large the rich (good for them!) already have ways to escape, if not profit from, the generalized effects. The rest of us do not.

There are additional problems to the "perpetual growth mentality", that I don't want to bring up too heavily, like incentivising continued erosion of the environment, natural resource depletion and less conservation.

> You seem to believe that secondary markets (namely wall street) are bad things.

No. Secondary markets are great. What is not great is forcing people to participate, as in, socializing risk while while allowing the rich and politically connected to enjoy the fruits of the casino capitalism with golden parachutes and fail-upwards scenarios. The traditional left/liberal argument is that we need to add regulation to fix that and protect the investment of general public, which, being anti-state-socialist, I am vehemently against (besides which the long history of added regulations seems to only have the effect of ensnaring more of the middle class into the system of socializing risk and paying off the privileged). The only solution is to not have these insidious little pushes that force the general public into these dangerous activities.

Inflation is like proto-matter from star trek II. You think you know what you're doing, harnessing this praeternatural force that can bend and shape society to what you think are "good things", but the cost is you're really making things unstable because of the fallacy of the unseen.

Re: A majority of millennials now reject capitalism, poll shows

#100

I think the rub is that the public debate confuses the triumph of the old British system of aristocracy and privilege with "capitalism". Just as they had the "corn laws" in the early 19th century, we have pharmaceutical import bans, region coding, the "dutch sandwich" and many many other privileges to keep the winners winning with a minimum of effort. If that's what passes for capitalism, who wouldn't reject it? Peop…

Equal opportunity, not "equal justice under law". Capitalism favors those who are lucky. It's nothing to do with law.

Edit: who wouldn't reject these things if they weren't benefiting from them (vast majority of people)?

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