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A majority of millennials now reject capitalism, poll shows

washingtonpost.com

41–50 of 135 posts

Re: A majority of millennials now reject capitalism, poll shows

#41
post #4

In my experience, people who criticize this article are probably benefiting from "capitalism" (the majority of people on here, I reckon, do), meanwhile those struggling from inequality, not being here, will fail to have their voice heard. And so the echo chamber ensues. That being said, capitalism and having things like free healthcare and education are hardly mutually exclusive. So I think the article's conclusion,…

> meanwhile those struggling from inequality, not being here, will fail to have their voice heard. And so the echo chamber ensues.

Those struggling from from inequality are struggling from relative deprivation, not absolute deprivation, while the latter is the only thing that rationally matters. I don't give a damn that Bill Gates is a ridiculous amount richer than me, in fact I admire him and want to be rich too someday. I have enough to survive and buy books, why should I worry about my relative wealth? People on the poverty line in the US ($20k) actually make 2x as much as the global mean wage ($10k). I doubt the people that currently complain about inequality today would be willing to give up >50% of their wage to alleviate it on the global scale, rather they will make arguments about "standard of living" as if they have some fundamental right to live better than those in Africa, poor India, ect... meanwhile I would rather be lower middle class now in US than Rockefeller 100 years ago.

I'm taking a pretty hard stance on this because I feel pretty strongly about it.

Re: A majority of millennials now reject capitalism, poll shows

#42
post #4

In my experience, people who criticize this article are probably benefiting from "capitalism" (the majority of people on here, I reckon, do), meanwhile those struggling from inequality, not being here, will fail to have their voice heard. And so the echo chamber ensues. That being said, capitalism and having things like free healthcare and education are hardly mutually exclusive. So I think the article's conclusion,…

The survey you linked to is from 2011, and it was mentioned in the article as a precursor to the April 2016 Harvard survey that the article was written about.

I think this is the 2016 Harvard poll the article was referring to: http://iop.harvard.edu/youth-poll/harvard-iop-spring-2016-po...

Re: A majority of millennials now reject capitalism, poll shows

#43
Arise ye prisoners of starvation! Arise ye wretched of the Earth. For justice thunders condemnation, a better world in birth.

I mean, sure, most Millenials probably equate capitalism with neoliberalism and socialism with social-democracy, but hey, given that interpretation, yeah, neoliberalism has ruined quite a lot of our lives.

Re: A majority of millennials now reject capitalism, poll shows

#44

This is like those surveys that show a majority of Americans oppose Obamacare, but a majority favor almost all of the individual policies that comprise Obamacare when the word "Obamacare" does not appear in the survey. What I would like to see is a survey that asks people their opinions on certain characteristics of capitalism, without mentioning the word "capitalism." I think the results would be very different.

But it's interesting to see that "capitalism" is becoming a dirty word, when in the cold-war era it was the opposite of "communism" which was a synonym for "evil".

Yet "socialism" is an even dirtier word according to the survey results. What we really have here are young people who are fed up with the low level of economic opportunity available to them, relative to the level of opportunity they expected to have.

Re: A majority of millennials now reject capitalism, poll shows

#45
post #38
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your first paragraph manages to sort of dismiss both sides without really engaging with them. No one wants to be typecasted, even if they have legitimate biases. There's plenty more nuance to contribute to the discussion than simply characterizing most of the participants the same way Upton Sinclair would: by their salaries. I think you do raise a legitimate point about echo chambers, but how does that observation on…

Hmm, you make some good points. I accept that I may have not contributed to the conversation as much as I would like (though "contribution" wasn't really my intention, but your point stands). However, I will say that the latter part of your post is the kind of comment that I was expecting, for better or worse.

Yes but you see this is my point entirely. Instead of engaging with the discussion you have this aloof cynicism. I didn't even say anything particularly in support of capitalism, yet you dismissed by point as "what you expected." How do you persuade others to see an alternative perspective if you don't first validate their opinions?

For example, I'm willing to engage in dialectics about the advantages and disadvantages of a capitalist system (for example, see my other comment about this article), but you didn't really say anything other than "you make some good points, but this is what I expected."

Take a position. You don't diminish an echo chamber just by observing that it exists, you have to engage with it and attempt to improve the discussion. I called out my potential bias and took a stance. You've not really done either here, which ultimately diminishes the impact of calling out the difficulty in the first place. What was the point?

Re: A majority of millennials now reject capitalism, poll shows

#46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which is unfortunate, because government involvement in business is a socialist idea, not a capitalist one.

Who enforces capitalist property rights?

Upholding the rule of law (punishing fraud, theft, murder, and other infringements of the rights of others) is the job of the government in a free market system. Protecting consumers from themselves and picking businesses to subsidize/grant privileges to is not.

The gray area, which I consider to fall in the 'upholding the rule of law' category, are consumption-based regulations or incentives, where a practical piece of society (like burning fuel) infringes on the rights of many others to a small degree, and this is where a carbon tax could easily fit in a free market system. In fact, it could be argued that the system is freer than if there were no pollution taxes at all, because then people would be allowed to infringe on the property rights of others (via shared atmosphere, oceans, climate) unhindered.

Re: A majority of millennials now reject capitalism, poll shows

#47
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Historically property rights were defended by the owner.

Unless you mean before written history then no. Governments have been mediating property disputes at least as far as the written word and likely though the last 100,000+ years.

In feudalistic society there were hundreds of small "governments" in a society, all of which had to defend their own rights.

Re: A majority of millennials now reject capitalism, poll shows

#48
post #31
post #4

In my experience, people who criticize this article are probably benefiting from "capitalism" (the majority of people on here, I reckon, do), meanwhile those struggling from inequality, not being here, will fail to have their voice heard. And so the echo chamber ensues. That being said, capitalism and having things like free healthcare and education are hardly mutually exclusive. So I think the article's conclusion,…

I find myself between the two ecosystems quite often and I have to admit I find it hard to know how to represent both sides fairly in discussions. It is definitely not a bipartisan issue. There is no us vs them, it is simply one big group of people where those on the bottom of the system are struggling to affect the smaller changes needed to make life more sustainable for them. They aren't big changes either, small i…

> Those individuals just don't have the capacity after work, or the connections, to advocate effectively for themselves.

It's not just that, but it's the fact that it takes a huge amount study to even understand how things like the national economy work. Business people and the upper class already have a huge leg up in this because it's their bread and butter. Poor people and shift workers really need to go out of their way to learn the ins and outs.

And what ruins the whole endeavor is the fact that it is much easier to cherry-pick statistics and spin any given policy decision to adhere to a certain message and populist ideology. Republicans have mastered the art of spinning every talking point to appeal to rural and working class voters while maintaining a firm agenda benefitting the special interests they claim to be against. Not that Democrats are objectively any better—the two party system ensures that anyone with deep enough pockets can just donate to both sides and not worry too much about anyone with real principles standing in their way. But considering that Trump has managed to paint himself as somehow being of and for The People despite the most elite and privileged trust-fund roots imaginable really goes to show what an uphill battle it will be to make real progress.

It is sometimes said that truth is powerful, but in an increasingly complex world with cheaper and cheaper information production and distribution, propaganda is gaining power much faster than the populace's capacity to understand it.

Re: A majority of millennials now reject capitalism, poll shows

#49
post #45
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hmm, you make some good points. I accept that I may have not contributed to the conversation as much as I would like (though "contribution" wasn't really my intention, but your point stands). However, I will say that the latter part of your post is the kind of comment that I was expecting, for better or worse.

Yes but you see this is my point entirely. Instead of engaging with the discussion you have this aloof cynicism. I didn't even say anything particularly in support of capitalism, yet you dismissed by point as "what you expected." How do you persuade others to see an alternative perspective if you don't first validate their opinions? For example, I'm willing to engage in dialectics about the advantages and disadvantag…

I see no point in an engagement where two people who are both benefiting from capitalism discuss its merits. My greater point could be that it is our benefiting from this capitalism that we have such privilege to be wasting time on such discussions to begin with. What would be gained from such a conversation, anyway? Even if one of us manages to convince us that capitalism isn't the way to go, or make us think less of it, it's not like we're going to significantly change our lifestyle as a result.

There's a great saying actually that's relevant, but for the life of me I can't remember.

Re: A majority of millennials now reject capitalism, poll shows

#50
post #4

In my experience, people who criticize this article are probably benefiting from "capitalism" (the majority of people on here, I reckon, do), meanwhile those struggling from inequality, not being here, will fail to have their voice heard. And so the echo chamber ensues. That being said, capitalism and having things like free healthcare and education are hardly mutually exclusive. So I think the article's conclusion,…

alright. I'll bite. I have made almost no money in the past year, and my bank account is nearly zero. I had a relatively middle class upbringing (but for reasons I'd rather not go into) my family is currently bankrupt. Capitalism (in the free markets sense) is great. The problem is that gobs of money are stolen from poor people like me by the government through various processes, the biggest of which is inflation. Th…

Inflation is useful and is not stealing if the rate of inflation is communicated and stable. If the government decided to suddenly devalue it's currency for the sole purpose of reducing it's debt burden then it could be construed as stealing. If the government communicated that it will devalue its currency at a fixed 2% every year it's not stealing because individuals are able to account for it.

Why is inflation useful as opposed to deflation? If money were to be gaining in value rather than losing value people would be incentivized to do a few things

1. Hold on to money because it would increase in value over time

2. Not make purchases because the object being purchased will require fewer units of money over time.

3. Not invest in starting new businesses because the investor would be losing out on the guaranteed income from holding onto the money along with the fact that whatever the business sells will be worth fewer units of money over time

4. Disincentivize individuals to take out loans to start businesses because the value of the loan will increase in price over time.

However when money loses value over time there are a few nice properties

1. The burden of debt decreases over time

2. People are incentivized to invest their money into business

You seem to believe that secondary markets (namely wall street) are bad things. The secondary market is a good thing because it gives individuals that initially put up capital for new businesses to be created a way to realize the return on their investment without having to wait for dividends. This is good because people that are successful in choosing which businesses should have capital (because their product is valuable) and which businesses don't deserve that capital will be able to take their money and invest it into other businesses which would presumably create products that add value to the world.

Of course there are bad things such as advisors charging excessive fees to ignorant people, corporate raiders, fraudsters, etc.

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