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Facts about migration and crime in Sweden

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Re: Facts about migration and crime in Sweden

#441

In this discussion, please don't forget to count violence that was avoided because a migrant was able so seek refuge somewhere. It's often overlooked that the fact that someone got out of a war in the first place is a glorious success story to begin with.

It's not a success for Sweden. Unless the migrants cause Sweden to become safer and more prosperous, it is a failure. Swedish culture is also of value, but will be extinct within a generation or two.

There is something demented about a country that puts the rest of the world first, destroying itself in a futile effort to save the world.

Re: Facts about migration and crime in Sweden

#442

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not attempting to prove the grandparent right (because they are not), but the 1.1% figure is misleading. It's the portion of migrant crimes that are sex crimes, not the portion of sex crimes committed by migrants of the all sex crimes.

"The point is that a majority of all violence and sexual crimes is performed by immigrants" I definitely read that as "the portion of sex crimes committed by migrants of the all sex crimes".

I was referring to the BND report taking about "1.1%", not that...

Re: Facts about migration and crime in Sweden

#443
I would take these "facts" about migration with a huge rock of salt.

In Sweden, as in other Western European countries, public debate about immigration, islamisation and its consequences to society is being smothered under a suffocating blanket of political correctness.

After the New Year's Eve attacks in Cologne - when on one square, during one night a total of about 1200 women were hemmed in individually and sexually assaulted by a mob of muslim men [1] - the German press and the government managed to keep the events under wraps for four days until the outrage on social media became too great to ignore.

In the slipstream of the press coverage that followed, the Swedish newspaper Dagens Nyheter revealed that similar events had happened since a couple of years on the summer music festival "We Are Sthlm" in Stockholm [2]. When asked for reasons as to why nothing of this ever became public knowledge, Police chief Peter Ågren is quoted explaining how he performs self-censorship on these kinds of cases as to not play into the hands of the anti-immigration party Sverigedemokraterna [3][4].

I don't follow Swedish media because of the language barrier but if my experience with Flemish and Dutch media is any indication then this political party might very well be demonised beyond recognition in the Swedish press. People don't like to play into the hands of what they're told to consider as the Second Coming of Lucifer, even when the events turn out to be the very thing this party has been warning for for years.

It would be quite understandable if events like wat happened in Stockholm would lead to a moral panic [5], but as soon as it becomes clear that muslim immigrants are the perpetrators, the opposite happens. People will vent their outrage about what happened in a close circle of trusted friends but put on a mask of political correctness to anyone outside that circle. Not unlike the Soviet Union in its heyday. On the other hand, as soon as there is a hint of how racist the native population allegedly is, the press kicks into full moral panic mode.

A striking example of this double standard are the events of 2016 in Belgium. During the arrest of terrorist Salah Abdeslam in Brussels [6], the anti-terror units were pelted with stones and bottles by muslim youth from the Molenbeek neighbourhood where his hideout was. Quite the contradiction to the eternal story we keep hearing about "a few bad apples". So the public broadcaster VRT decided not to mention that pesky detail. Elsewhere it hardly got any coverage until a minister got angry over it [7]. When on the other hand a few racist comments made by native Belgians are found on Facebook among millions of non-racist ones, then this is reason enough for the newspaper "De Morgen" to appear with a entirely black front page [8].

The Swedish government's "fact" sheet puts on a brave face about having immigration-related violence under control. One look at the ever growing list of recent grenade attacks [9] (that they conveniently forget to mention in their factsheet) tells us there is a very serious problem [10]. No mention neither of the fact that of the 160.000+ asylum seekers that arrived in 2015 only, fewer than 500 landed a job [11]. On a total population of 10 million people hundreds of thousands of relative newcomers - many of them functionally illiterate - are living on benefits without any prospect of ever playing a role in the economy of Sweden where less than 5% of the jobs is low-skilled [12].

The "factsheet" lambasts its own citizens - who foot the bill for the benefits and the urban unrest - for being islamophobe, for harrassing muslims and for discriminating them on the job market. It misleadingly suggest a percentage of 1.5 muslims by only counting "muslim faith communities". While the real number is probably at least 6% [13]. Apparantly the Swedish government wants us to believe that the other 4.5% have become secular.

The findings of the Dutch scholar Ruud Koopmans, who does research at the Humboldt university in Berlin tell another story. By conducting surveys among the European muslim population he comes to the conclusion that 40 to 45% percent can be classified as fundamentalist [14][15]. There is also the British Channel 4 docu "What British Muslims Really Think" [16].

That many muslims in Sweden are quite fundamentalist is why the Jewish actor Kim Bodnia decided to quit the crime series "The Bridge" because he did no longer feel safe in Malmö with its growing antisemitism [17].

And if you think this will all blow over once the children of the first generation immigrants have finished school and are ready for the job market, think again. Second generation muslim immigrants are no better integrated, they are even worse integrated. If you want to look up some stats from Belgium on that topic you hit a stonewall. But the Dutch central bureau for statistics has some solid public data on that.

So one of the disturbing things they found was that for many non-Western minorities criminality rate increased with the second generation w.r.t. the first one. Take for instance Moroccans and Turks, as they are important minorities in both Belgium and the Netherlands.

Males with a Moroccan background are almost six times more likely to be a crime suspect than a native Dutchman. Males of Turkish descent more than three times. And when you split up by generation: second generation Moroccans in the Netherlands are almost three times more likely to be a crime suspect than the first generation. Second generation Turks more than two times [18].

So you have a generation of people who were born and spent their entire life in the Netherlands, went to the same schools and got the same education as Dutch kids, and yet they are more of a burden to society and are less well integrated than the first generation of immigrants.

I think you can extrapolate that to other European countries like Sweden and to immigrants with a background in other parts of the world, like the horn of Africa, Syria, Iraq or Afghanistan.

The share of muslims among the European population is also rapidly growing [19] because of a number of factors that amplify each other. First of all there is the continued influx. Then you have family reunification. Add to that the fact that many muslims of 1st, 2nd or 3rd generation prefer to look for a spouse in their country of origin. And there is the higher birthrate among muslims compared to the native population. And finally there are native people who feel alienated in their own country and go try their luck in North America, Australia or New Zealand.

So I think these "facts" are a desperate attempt by the Swedish government to shape perception towards their own interests, and you are better informed when reading the testimony of that courageous Swedish cop:

http://www.thelocal.se/20170208/swedish-police-officer-cause...

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Year's_Eve_sexual_assaults...

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/We_Are_Sthlm_sexual_assaults

[3] http://www.spectator.co.uk/2016/01/its-not-only-germany-that...

[4] http://www.dn.se/nyheter/sverige/assaults-at-the-stockholm-f...

[5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_panic

[6] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Brussels_police_raids

[7] https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&pr...

[8] https://twitter.com/demorgen/status/760580553850621954

[9] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_grenade_attacks_in_Swe...

[10] http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-sweden-grenades-idUKKCN0QE0...

[11] http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/refugee-crisi...

[12] http://www.economist.com/news/finance-economics/21709511-too...

[13] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Sweden

[14] https://www.wzb.eu/en/press-release/islamic-fundamentalism-i...

[15] https://phys.org/news/2015-01-islamic-fundamentalism-margina...

[16] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQcSvBsU-FM

[17] http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/sweden/1216...

[18] https://www.cbs.nl/-/media/_pdf/2016/47/ji2016s_web.pdf, paragraph 1.7, "Proportion of crime suspects by background and background characteristics, 2015*"

[19] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_population_growth#Europ...

Re: Facts about migration and crime in Sweden

#445
post #441

In this discussion, please don't forget to count violence that was avoided because a migrant was able so seek refuge somewhere. It's often overlooked that the fact that someone got out of a war in the first place is a glorious success story to begin with.

It's not a success for Sweden. Unless the migrants cause Sweden to become safer and more prosperous, it is a failure. Swedish culture is also of value, but will be extinct within a generation or two. There is something demented about a country that puts the rest of the world first, destroying itself in a futile effort to save the world.

There is a difference between regugee and non-refugee immigration. Refugees will be somewhere and im the first to acknowledge that it would be great if more countries helped.

Further, there is a difference between permanent and temporary asylum. I think giving temporary asylum to people fleeing war is the least any country can do. I just don't understand what the option would be? Send more aid to build larger miserable camps in nearby countries? Not sure that's better to be honest.

Re: Facts about migration and crime in Sweden

#446

Nobody is interested in generalized studies about immigration or 25 year statistical trends. They want to know what's happened in the last two years or so since the refugee crisis started. So much of what is put forward here just doesn't apply, and blatantly so, that I assume motivated reasoning.

Hey biased hacker news people who love to down vote comments they disagree with even if they make valid points, here's a second one for you to double down on. And don't give me that "don't comment on being down voted" crap. That's just a way to make discussion for how calling out ideologically motivated rating off limits.

Actually the rules are the rules whether you like them or not. Please follow them if you want to comment here.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: Facts about migration and crime in Sweden

#447
Worth noting is the "Swedish Defense and National Security Advisor" recently on Fox News, who confirmed Trump views has no connection at all to Swedish security or the government, he is even completely unheard of. Also living in the US since long with a criminal conviction. So not much of an expert.

http://www.dn.se/nyheter/varlden/fake-sweden-expert-on-fox-n...

Re: Facts about migration and crime in Sweden

#448
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you mean that the cost issues of bulletproof vest for firefighter were also fabrication ?

Presumably, as you haven't added any source for your anecfact?

Plenty of sources tell us that emergency services in metropolitan areas in Sweden wear protective vests. There are cost issues, and there are image issues, i.e. if the firemen are protected against you stabbing them, it's "militarization" and you'll see them as your enemy.

E.g. Svenska Dagbladet (no fringe publication, a major newspaper): https://www.svd.se/ambulanspersonal-far-skyddsvastar

Of course, this is not unique. Plenty of American cities have the same: http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/local/crime-and-courts/madi...

Re: Facts about migration and crime in Sweden

#449

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can we exit crazy world for a moment and say that "there's tons of evidence" doesn't cut it unless you provide that evidence? The level of rampant irrationality here is disheartening.

Well I'm not from Sweden so I cannot comment on that, but it's a well-known and documented fact that e.g. here in the Netherlands, ethnicities other than 'Dutch' are over-represented in about every negative statistic that is being tracked, amongst which are crime statistics. I could point you to cbs statline, which is the goverment statistics body, but it's in Dutch so I don't know if it's of any use to you, see [1]…

    > Whether these groups are
    > over-represented because of 
    > socio-economic status, 
    > cultural factors, genetics 
    > or whatever seems largely 
    > irrelevant to me
Then I'm entirely unsure why you're contributing to a thread of conversation about evidence on that specific point, and providing evidence for something else entirely.

Re: Facts about migration and crime in Sweden

#450

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I took a quite specific discussion ("Sweden has turned dangerous because of crimes by immigrants") and in that discussion the fact(?) that total crime numbers have not increased is very relevant. Not necessarily the case because demographics are never homogeneously distributed across territory. If the rape/crime numbers didn't fall uniformly across the whole population, then you could have scenarios where crime fel…

Lots of factors contribute to change in criminal activity, urbanization, rise of income inequality but also more people in segregated areas will probably not work out very well either.

There's no particular rise in Swedish income equality during this millennium. Income inequality after social transfers is quite stable.

Segregation of areas is however becoming stronger, as many minorities like to live in their own ethnic enclaves.

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