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Facts about migration and crime in Sweden

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Re: Facts about migration and crime in Sweden

#431

Post by Exofunctor »

kaveh_h wrote: post #411
Exofunctor wrote: post #372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point is that most of these immigrants are poor, correspondingly prone to crime, and therefore not the sort of people you want to blast into your tiny population by the tens of thousands. Things are also confounded by the fact that most of these people are heavily theologically indoctrinated, making social integration and upward mobility effectively impossible, so they're going to stay poor.

"Things are also confounded by the fact.." Which facts? What do you base this belief on? Any sources to any studies? Swedens tiny population of 10 million can't handle immigration of tens of thousands? That's laughabale, it's been doing exactly that for decades now. Iraq, Iran, Bosnia, Kosovo, Somalia, Eritrea, Ethiopia, Afghanistan, Iraq again, Ukraine, Syria. Only recently has a resistance to these policies been se…

> What do you base this belief on? Any sources to any studies?

http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religi...

You should think very carefully about why you had an incorrect model of these people. You may be making similar mistakes in other areas.

> Swedens tiny population of 10 million can't handle immigration of tens of thousands?

Depends how you define "handle". If by "handle" you mean "avoid cultural erasure", then maybe not.

I'd also like to point out that it's tens of thousands per year. There are almost 100,000 Syrians in Sweden.

> Upwards mobility will happen

On what do you base this claim? Has upward mobility happened in the countries from which these refugees originate?

Re: Facts about migration and crime in Sweden

#432

Post by tropo »

1_2__3 wrote: post #381
edblarney wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"the main difference in terms of criminal activity between immigrants and others in the population was due to differences in the socioeconomic conditions in which they grew up in Sweden." This is a classic red-herring. 'They were poor therefore they have bad behaviours'. The failure of the logic is the assumption of correlation/causation. One might argue that 'bad behaviour will lead one to being poor'. I have no dou…

> In the US - people are far more gregarious and open personally. Can I just share my belief that this is polite fiction? It's certainly the view of America that we Americans have for ourselves, but can you honestly say you see evidence of it in day-to-day-life - and can you compare it to western Europe? In my personal experience no, EU migrants are no more marginalized than they are here, and no, American migrants a…

The melting was prior to about 1960, with the strongest melting during the World War I. During the wars, German-speaking communities switched fully to English. Everybody was expected to conform to a universal American culture, and most of them proudly did so.

Had the melting pot not grown cold, we'd have a lot less internal conflict today.

Re: Facts about migration and crime in Sweden

#433

Post by tropo »

otalp wrote: post #151
leereeves wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In Germany, refugees are less likely to commit a crime than the average citizen Meanwhile in Sweden: > According to the most recent study, people from foreign backgrounds are 2.5 times more likely to be suspected of crimes than people born in Sweden to Swedish-born parents.

There's a difference between 'people from foreign backgrounds' and refugees. Even in Germany, I wouldn't be surprised if 'people from foreign backgrounds' commit crimes at a higher rate when you don't adjust for socio-economic conditions. However the majority of Syrian refugees - about 70%[1][2][3] are women and children. Again, something that is rarely mentioned in certain parts of the internet. [1]- http://www.poli…

They are "children" like this 12-year-old with a receding hair line, Adam's apple, and stubble:

https://www.reddit.com/r/CringeAnarchy/comments/47ri8u/this_...

Claimed ages are accepted without question. To question the age is considered racist. There is an incentive to lie: minors get instant citizenship and lots of help.

So really, it isn't children. It's men.

Would you want a 30-year-old dude in your daughter's 7th grade class?

Re: Facts about migration and crime in Sweden

#434

Post by facepalm »

TillE wrote: post #391
yAnonymous wrote: post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The same things started happening in Germany and it's widely reported even by left wing media. It'd be almost comical if you called them liars, too.

Remember when all the German press reported that firefighters were kept out of a left-wing squat in Berlin after a girl died there, and then the next day the fire department had to clarify that this wasn't what happened at all? This was a couple months ago, probably the sort of incident you were thinking of. Lies are rampant. Especially racist anti-immigrant lies: http://hoaxmap.org/

Do you have a link to the clarification? I missed that one.

Re: Facts about migration and crime in Sweden

#435

Post by tropo »

literallycancer wrote: post #293
akerro wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How about linking the material? First result from 4sec googling: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1MYMVfyHi0 >But you certainly don't have any right to be publicly racist and expect no retaliation. Seriously, demolishing someone's car/house is not worth mentioning in your comment, but have no right to be publicly racist? I also didn't say it was racist, where did you take this from? Also, what's your address becaus…

I didn't mean to say that it's ok to burn down someone's car or a house. But retaliation within legal means is to be expected. Not sure about Sweden, but in my country being publicly racist[1] would be viewed as a crime[2]. I don't think anyone expects employers to continue employing active criminals. >I also didn't say it was racist, where did you take this from? >anti-racist groups ... get you fired from job for li…

That kind of law leads to self-censorship of things that wouldn't even be illegal, simply because nobody will risk stepping near the line. A good deal of factual and political speech gets wiped out.

If your country is typical of the sort of Western nation with that kind of law, then "1 to 5 years of prison" is more than you'd get for rape. That's quite some fear of words.

Here in the USA, we mostly laugh at the actual hate groups. Your country has made them a forbidden fruit, all the more enticing. You also can't know people's true feelings... you might discover them abruptly someday, in a very bad way.

Re: Facts about migration and crime in Sweden

#436

Post by tropo »

rrock wrote: post #186
trendia wrote: post #11

The way this is worded is weird: Claim: "In Sweden there are a number of 'no-go zones' where criminality and gangs have taken over and where the emergency services do not dare to go." Facts: No. In a report published in February 2016, the Swedish Police Authority identified 53 residential areas around the country that have become increasingly marred by crime, social unrest and insecurity. These places have been incor…

What's weird about it? They deny that there's such a thing as a no-go zone in Sweden. Fits with my experience, as I've never encountered a place in Sweden that felt like that. Contrast that with here in Chicago, where there are neighborhoods where I will not go in broad daylight, even though they are not labeled no-go zones. Seriously, we need to get a sense of perspective. Edit: see also, perspective from Latvia in…

Chicago has no-go zones, and no-go zones are always bad.

The difference here is that Sweden is creating new no-go zones. However that happens (in this case immigration) it is really bad. If a government policy would create new no-go zones, then that government policy is bad. Stop it!

Fixing the older no-go zones is a different problem. It is important, but a lower priority than not creating new no-go zones.

It's like... close the plug in the bottom of your boat before worrying about the water that is already there.

Re: Facts about migration and crime in Sweden

#437

Post by dep_b »

daveguy wrote: post #354
dep_b wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you are looking for excuses for racism Why is the conclusion that immigrants dominate the statistics of violence against women racist? I don't think there are many people who believe the cause of this statistic is genetic. I thought women should be safe regardless the perpetrator but there is this weird dual standard where the whole company Uber (correctly!) gets the blame because of it's douchebag culture even…

> Why is the conclusion that immigrants dominate the statistics of violence against women racist? Because it appears to be a made up conclusion for the purpose of stoking anti-immigrant sentiment. You have yet to provide a source. OP has sources. GP has sources. You have fear mongering.

> The 2005 report by the Swedish National Council for Crime Prevention studying 4.4 million Swedes between the ages of 15 and 51 during the period 1997-2001 found that 58.9% of crime suspects were born to two Swedish parents (74.5% of total population), 10.4% of those born to one Swedish parent (9.3% of total population), 5.2% of those born to two foreign parents (3.2% of total population), and 25% of foreign-born individuals (13.1% of total population). The report found that male immigrants were four times more likely to be investigated for lethal violence and robbery than ethnic Swedes. In addition, male immigrants were three times more likely to be investigated for violent assault, and five times more likely to be investigated for sex crimes

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_and_crime#Sweden

If you don't think WikiPedia is correct feel free to change the lemma, I bet they can use a certified statistician like you with all kinds of sources to prove them wrong. But until then:

Five times as much

And now I need to believe that I'm the one that needs to be corrected?

And another thing: once you split it up to region there's a bigger difference. East Asian and Western immigrants generally have lower or similar statistics compared to natives, meaning there are also groups that exceed the five times average.

Re: Facts about migration and crime in Sweden

#438

Post by tomlock »

ra1n85 wrote: post #414
tomlock wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The possibility of Trump winning does not exonerate the accuracy of the odds presented by polls. The odds were not correct, and the polling data was flawed. If there are 10% odds of something happening and it happens after one event, that's absolutely not a reason to say the data points that generated the odds are flawed. That is the reason you presented.

It's not. I'll clarify, to help. The reason not to trust polling data presented today is that the probabilities presented in the past were not accurate.

Based on what data?

Re: Facts about migration and crime in Sweden

#439

Post by beefield »

dep_b wrote: post #437
daveguy wrote: post #354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why is the conclusion that immigrants dominate the statistics of violence against women racist? Because it appears to be a made up conclusion for the purpose of stoking anti-immigrant sentiment. You have yet to provide a source. OP has sources. GP has sources. You have fear mongering.

> The 2005 report by the Swedish National Council for Crime Prevention studying 4.4 million Swedes between the ages of 15 and 51 during the period 1997-2001 found that 58.9% of crime suspects were born to two Swedish parents (74.5% of total population), 10.4% of those born to one Swedish parent (9.3% of total population), 5.2% of those born to two foreign parents (3.2% of total population), and 25% of foreign-born in…

> And now I need to believe that I'm the one that needs to be corrected?

Your original claim was:

> immigrants dominate the statistics of violence against women

Let's see what "dominate" means [1]:

to be predominant in

And further, predominant [2]:

being most frequent or common

There is simply nothing to discuss here. Your original claim was wrong, even using your own statistics. (Of course, you may have tried to say or you meant that immigrants are over represented, which would be correct. But you did not say that. Thus you are the one to be corrected.)

[1] https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/dominate [2] https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/predominant

Re: Facts about migration and crime in Sweden

#440

Post by tomlock »

facepalm wrote: post #380
tomlock wrote: post #301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I think it would make sense to reduce the number of poor people. This could be achieved in a number of ways. For example, poor swedes could be deported and rich immigrants could take their place - this would actually be more effective than halting immigration altogether. Another form of issue dodging is when people suggest that immigrants are the issue without admitting that the situation is a complex combination of…

What do you mean by "willing to take into account"? Male or poor, the problem is still that if immigration imports many male and/or poor, crime levels rise.

>But it should be possible to take that [being a man] into account statistically.

So why not take being an immigrant "into account statistically"?

It seems like the anti-PC folk have some things they think we should be PC about and take into account (like being a man) while being an immigrant is fair game. It doesn't make any sense to blame crime on one demographic factor, and ignore the others.

Its a matter of anti-PC folk selectively ignoring evidence that doesn't fit their worldview.

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