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Facts about migration and crime in Sweden

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Re: Facts about migration and crime in Sweden

#371

Post by oytis »

ng12 wrote: post #333
oytis wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The two statements: 1. "Immigration doesn't lead to increase in crime rate". 2. "Most criminal offences are committed by immigrants". dont't contradict each other. It may well be that immigrants push locals out of criminal business, because they are now the most poor and discriminated. That means that if you somehow decrease immigration rate, the business will be taken by Swedes again.

Did you just refer to sexual assault as a business?

No, but the logic in the same. People closer to the bottom of social hierarchy are more prone to sexual assaults. Immigrants just occupied social niche that was previosly occupied by poorest locals.

Re: Facts about migration and crime in Sweden

#372

Post by Exofunctor »

AlexTelon wrote: post #215
AnthonyMouse wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So it seems that whilst immigrants are suspected of more crimes than average, they commit the same amount of crime as poor deprived members of indigenous populations. "Commit the same level of crime as the subset of the population who commit the highest level of crime" does not sound very reassuring.

The quote was: "In a later study, researchers at Stockholm University showed that the main difference in terms of criminal activity between immigrants and others in the population was due to differences in the socioeconomic conditions in which they grew up in Sweden." That means that the most important factor in terms of criminal activity is that immigrants are largely poor and poor commit more crimes. Not that rich…

The point is that most of these immigrants are poor, correspondingly prone to crime, and therefore not the sort of people you want to blast into your tiny population by the tens of thousands. Things are also confounded by the fact that most of these people are heavily theologically indoctrinated, making social integration and upward mobility effectively impossible, so they're going to stay poor.

Re: Facts about migration and crime in Sweden

#373

Post by alkonaut »

andrewclunn wrote: post #37

Nobody is interested in generalized studies about immigration or 25 year statistical trends. They want to know what's happened in the last two years or so since the refugee crisis started. So much of what is put forward here just doesn't apply, and blatantly so, that I assume motivated reasoning.

The thing is - normal immigration and refugee immigration are two different things.

The refugee problem cannot be solved by "not accepting refugees". That's not a viable solution.

What should be done differently? Building huge internment camps? Would the human suffering really be smaller in those camps than it has been in society as a whole now through crime etc? I doubt it.

Those who argue that the wave of refugees caused so much problems rarely present any solutions.

Non-refugee immigration on the other hand (of which Sweden had had lots) thats a different matter. But somehow that's not the focus of this recent debate.

Re: Facts about migration and crime in Sweden

#374

Post by k_swden »

lngnmn wrote: post #142
gaff33 wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They talk about it in the article > People from foreign backgrounds are suspected of crimes more often than people from a Swedish background [...] In a later study, researchers at Stockholm University showed that the main difference in terms of criminal activity between immigrants and others in the population was due to differences in the socioeconomic conditions in which they grew up in Sweden. So it seems that whil…

This is plainly wrong. Socioeconomic factors are not the major ones. Culture, habits and social conditioning in general are. People who do not share (or even comprehend) the shared values of other cultures have no respect to them and perceive others as "aliens". This works both ways. The cultural incompatibility and different social conditioning are the major factors. Basically, well-educated people of any origin wou…

First you state socioeconomic factors are not major factor, but then you go on saying "well-educated people of any origin would behave more or less similarly", but socioeconomic factors are: income, EDUCATION and occupation, ergo you're contradicting yourself or you have no clue what socioeconomic factors are.

Re: Facts about migration and crime in Sweden

#375

Post by anjc »

alkonaut wrote: post #342
anjc wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What sets the no-go zones apart in places like Sweden is that, not only are they filled with poor unemployed people, but those people have a different ideology and come from third world countries, and therefore the crimes perpetrated are different from that of the indigenous population. There isn't even a street in Dublin in which that's the case. There are certainly places in Dublin where you might be more likely to…

So the latter is much worse?

Eh, of course it is?

Re: Facts about migration and crime in Sweden

#376

Post by alkonaut »

In this discussion, please don't forget to count violence that was avoided because a migrant was able so seek refuge somewhere. It's often overlooked that the fact that someone got out of a war in the first place is a glorious success story to begin with.

Re: Facts about migration and crime in Sweden

#377

Post by k_swden »

It's not unlikely that migrants coming from a less educated background choose to settle in highly segregated area as they likelier to opt to live closer to their country men. The problem with this is very obvious, many have problem learning the language, norms and fail to gain useful knowledge about their new modern society and what's worse is their children is in the same trap and the result is poor education, poverty and rising crime. The problem grows worse as people that become successful choose to move away because they are sick of the issues plaguing these areas, economics of scale works in reverse in these areas.

The left (S, V, mp) haven't touched much of these issues (ignorant or delusional), the right (C, L, KD, M) have chosen to ignore the problems for a long time until recently (swayed by the left?), and the extreme right (SD) has gotten very popular as they acknowledged problems but they seem to believe that it's an innate trait of the culture where these people are coming from and have extreme ideas about how to deal with it (rescind citizenship and deport). I don't think it's an innate trait, I myself is an immigrant and know many other immigrants from different backgrounds, and there's a huge difference between those that grew up in these neighborhoods and those that grew up in more areas which better represent the Swedish population. The one thing that is common to all successful immigrant (and immigrant children) is that they are confident and optimist, fast learners and choose to only hold on to parts of their original culture that fits within the Swedish norms.

This failure of integration, to build a modern, cohesive and beneficial culture for everyone, is common in the west, and particularly in Sweden who primarily takes in refugee immigrants from countries in war and not highly skilled immigrants from diverse backgrounds.

I hope these areas don't deteriorate even more and became like some ghettos of USA, where people die every other day because of gun violence as that's what I would call a no go zone.

Re: Facts about migration and crime in Sweden

#379

Post by alkonaut »

turc1656 wrote: post #355
alkonaut wrote: post #336

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Remarks like this is exactly why this whole debate has derailed. No one is even contesting that immigrants commit more crimes IT'S EVEN IN THIS ARTICLE WHICH IS AN ARTICLE FROM THE GOVERNMENT. Yet yeah it's covered up. Sure.

"No one is even contesting that immigrants commit more crimes" You must be joking. There is a huge amount of people who claim they don't. For example, these media outlets which many people find to be reputable: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/immigrants-... https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/26/us/trump-illegal-immigran... http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-bersani-piquero-i... Or you could hear…

It's all semantics. Immigrants commit more crimes. Adjust for economic/social factors and most of that disappears. So in one war they do and in others they don't. Statistics is hard and both sides use it to prove their point.

Re: Facts about migration and crime in Sweden

#380

Post by facepalm »

tomlock wrote: post #301
facepalm wrote: post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it would make sense to reduce the number of poor people. If taking in immigrants is likely to increase the number of poor people, there is a problem. The discussion is not about what should be done, only about Sweden's claim that there is no problem. If they say "yes there are criminals, but only because they are poor", they are dodging the issue. ----- edit: Hacker News doesn't let me post more comments. So…

>I think it would make sense to reduce the number of poor people. This could be achieved in a number of ways. For example, poor swedes could be deported and rich immigrants could take their place - this would actually be more effective than halting immigration altogether. Another form of issue dodging is when people suggest that immigrants are the issue without admitting that the situation is a complex combination of…

What do you mean by "willing to take into account"? Male or poor, the problem is still that if immigration imports many male and/or poor, crime levels rise.
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