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Facts about migration and crime in Sweden

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Re: Facts about migration and crime in Sweden

#301

Post by tomlock »

facepalm wrote: post #284
tomlock wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you think it would be fair to suggest the same restrictions on poor people as people are suggesting we place on immigrants?

I think it would make sense to reduce the number of poor people. If taking in immigrants is likely to increase the number of poor people, there is a problem. The discussion is not about what should be done, only about Sweden's claim that there is no problem. If they say "yes there are criminals, but only because they are poor", they are dodging the issue. ----- edit: Hacker News doesn't let me post more comments. So…

>I think it would make sense to reduce the number of poor people.

This could be achieved in a number of ways. For example, poor swedes could be deported and rich immigrants could take their place - this would actually be more effective than halting immigration altogether.

Another form of issue dodging is when people suggest that immigrants are the issue without admitting that the situation is a complex combination of factors. One of the best predictors of criminality from a statistical viewpoint is gender. Of course, excluding all men from immigrating into our countries probably strikes most as inhumane :) To say the immigrant status of a person is to be specially focused on seems particularly convenient, but not humane.

edit: Its funny you're willing to accept taking gender into account statistically, but not the wealth of most immigrants.

Re: Facts about migration and crime in Sweden

#302

Post by zurn »

polack wrote: post #70
otalp wrote: post #23

According to the official statistics on The Swedish Crime Survey, the sexual violence rate in Sweden remained about the same between 2005 and 2014. The refugee crisis began around 2014, and since then, the rates for sexual violence went down in 2015[1] something you never see mentioned on certain parts of the internet. 2016 saw an increase in crimes, but still less than pre-immigration levels in 2014. Also the Swedis…

It's totally irrelevant that the crimes has decreased. The point is that a majority of all violence and sexual crimes is performed by immigrants (as confirmed by Sweden's most famous crime professor GW a couple of days ago). Why are you so afraid to see that immigrants are over represented in this category of crimes?

> The point is that a majority of all violence and sexual crimes is performed by immigrants

This claim is false,

> (as confirmed by Sweden's most famous crime professor GW a couple of days ago)

and this attribution is also false.

Re: Facts about migration and crime in Sweden

#303

Post by tobylane »

orcdork wrote: post #230
polack wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's totally irrelevant that the crimes has decreased. The point is that a majority of all violence and sexual crimes is performed by immigrants (as confirmed by Sweden's most famous crime professor GW a couple of days ago). Why are you so afraid to see that immigrants are over represented in this category of crimes?

Hah, what a joke. Leif GW Persson is famous for writing books and being on tv shows - not for being a crime professor (and he is no longer a professor of criminology). There's a reason googling his name comes up with breitbart first, and goodreads second.

What difference does that make? As we've seen in USA, a job that has always been filled by career politicians or soldiers has been filled by a man famous for being on tv.

On the other hand this guy was in a relevant position. Is being a former professor of criminology different to currently being a professor?

Re: Facts about migration and crime in Sweden

#304

Post by glormph »

factsaresacred wrote: post #291
glormph wrote: post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not arguing against your point, but are there reports which are not 20+ years old? Also, my understanding of the words may be wrong but I didn't see anyone _justifying_ rape in this thread.

> are there reports which are not 20+ years old? I asked the same question. In 2005 Bra released a report saying "Immigrants’ risk of being registered for crime has not changed in any pronounced way since the previous study conducted by the National Council, which related to the situation at the end of the 1980s". https://www.bra.se/download/18.cba82f7130f475a2f1800010674/1... Your claim was "What are your sources th…

I see you have already dealt with my question about the word justify with another commenter.

Re: Facts about migration and crime in Sweden

#305

Post by freeflight »

madmax96 wrote: post #297
freeflight wrote: post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The report you linked doesn't help me at all, only providing an even larger number than I started with for migrant crimes. The report is the only thing that actually matters in this context because it's the actual data. All your sources are just news-outlets trying to interpret data from sources they don't even share with the reader. >but migrants from countries without a crisis that would lead to them seeking asylu…

>You first have to accept them to check if they actually qualify for refugee status, those that don't qualify don't get the status and thus have to leave the country. Then what? THEN they go back to the border and they create their own communities? How can you __actually__ make that many people leave? >Do you seriously think creating these kinds of "slums" would be beneficial to anybody? No, but the fact is these ref…

>Then what? THEN they go back to the border and they create their own communities? How can you __actually__ make that many people leave?

I never claimed the system is perfect because there is no perfect system for such complex problems.

>No, but the fact is these refugees are not able to contribute to the societies they come to in a meaningful way. For instance, in Germany only 1 in 10,000 refugees that arrived last year are employed.

That's because they are legally not allowed to work until their status has been cleared. It's not a matter of them "not wanting to work", it's a matter of not having the right status to work.

The other alternative, one that many populist right-wingers are advocating for, is forcing them to work even when their refugee status is still not cleared up.

But that would actually wreck havoc on labor wages because then you'd suddenly have created a whole new class of people that would work far below average wages just to "justify" their stay in the country. Do I really need to spell out what that would mean for the average low-income worker in the country? Average wages would be pushed even lower than they already are, which has already been a growing problem in Germany for over a decade.

There are no easy solutions to any of this, people who claim there are easy solutions are simply deluding themselves about the long-term ramifications of their solutions.

And no: Just "not letting them in" also ain't no solution, these people won't simply "disappear" just because you hide them behind big fences and walls.

No matter how you frame it, "globalizations" and freedom of movement has it's advantages and brings a lot of positive changes. As somebody who crossed the "Iron curtain" several times, when it still existed, I hardly wish those times back. It would be a step back for Europe and humanity as a whole. Fences and walls don't solve problems, they only compartmentalize them.

Re: Facts about migration and crime in Sweden

#306

Post by tomlock »

facepalm wrote: post #290
croon wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point isn't to console you. The point is to explain why crime happens, so it can be mitigated. Ie: * Stop immigration. OR * Integrate poor people into society, the workforce, etc.

The question was "is there a problem with immigration". How to mitigate crime is only the second step. And it will be difficult to mitigate it if you don't accept the causes. Of course leftists believe that rich countries like Sweden are to be blamed for the poverty of people from other countries. I am also not saying poor people shouldn't be helped. But there doesn't seem to be a universally working formula availabl…

Got any numbers on how many Muslims are "radical" compared to Christians? Christians also perform exorcisms on gay children and in some cases lynch gay people.

Keep in mind that deporting radical christian swedes would also be a good move if retaining a cultural tolerance for gay people is a goal.

Re: Facts about migration and crime in Sweden

#307

Post by sharemywin »

edblarney wrote: post #213
peteretep wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Socioeconomic factors are > not the major ones ... is your opinion, contradicted by the available evidence. You finish with a suggestion to call things "by its real names", so I will: pushing a false narrative of cultural superiority is racism. Begone.

"... is your opinion, contradicted by the available evidence" This is false. In fact - the evidence points much more strongly towards 'behaviour' than it does 'economic status'. (By the way, I'm not making the case entirely that 'ethnicity is it' - rather, saying that there's tons of evidence to support it. I believe that it's rather more complicated). 'Economic status' is loosely correlated with crime in the USA for…

So, what's the point. Should I judge you based on your specific actions or based on what all idiots(myself included) on the internet post?

Re: Facts about migration and crime in Sweden

#308

Post by _of »

devmunchies wrote: post #296

Why are many of Europe's leaders are childless? Isn't that strange? These people are creating laws and policies which will affect generations of people and they don't even have any skin in the game. They are fundamentally out of touch. Doing a google image search of "Angela Merkel Family" or "Stefan Löfven family" (PM of Sweden) and its night and day compared to "Barack Obama family" or "Donald Trump Family". Whether…

From a sample size of 2, let's conclude that many of Europe's leaders are childless!

Re: Facts about migration and crime in Sweden

#309

Post by tomlock »

facepalm wrote: post #286
sailingparrot wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the reason Sweden is welcoming migrants is because the birth rate is becoming really low, so there is need for new workers paying taxes. They are accepting more poors (and by extension statistically more crime-prone) people today, to hopefully have a still sane and stable economy in the future (thus with less poors).

That may be their theory, but where is the validation of the theory? What are the reasons to assume it will work out that way? --- Edit: reason for assuming it won't: there are many countries with a huge population that are nevertheless poor. So number of people alone doesn't seem to help against poverty. Also, there still seem to be poor native Swedish people, so apparently Sweden does not have a working formula for…

What are the reasons to assume it won't?

Keep in mind that a lot of these first world countries have an aging population - so younger people being imported is good because it brings in more taxpayers versus pensioners. See this bloomberg article for some of the problems particularly immigrant-shy countries face: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-02-23/why-immig...

The article itself also addresses some of these points:

>Sweden has had one of the highest rates of growth in Europe over the last two years. Youth unemployment has declined considerably and is now at its lowest level for 13 years, and long-term unemployment (12 months or longer) is the lowest in the EU.

Compare this with Japan: http://nationalinterest.org/feature/what-ails-japans-economy...

Re: Facts about migration and crime in Sweden

#310

Post by otalp »

factsaresacred wrote: post #298
otalp wrote: post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there a link to an actual government site instead of pictures of a book in Swedish that was published decades ago? > Besides, socioeconomic factors to justify rape....really? I'm sorry, but it is really difficult to have a serious conversation with someone unable to differentiate between the process of analyzing reasons for crimes and 'justifying' crimes. That is elementary stuff. And your point doesn't even make…

> is there a link to an actual government site instead of pictures of a book in Swedish that was published decades ago? That book was published by the goverment of Sweden. Does the host matter? In 2005 BRA (Swedish Criminal statistics) published an update saying: "Immigrants’ risk of being registered for crime has not changed in any pronounced way since the previous study conducted by the National Council, which rela…

1)'Justify' meaning: https://www.google.co.uk/#q=justify+meaning

"show or prove to be right or reasonable"

2) > That book was published by the goverment of Sweden.

Probably, but pictures on "pdf-archive.com" are not a valid source since anyone can doctor them. It should be trivial and take a matter of minutes to find a link to the official government manual from a government site, if you're familiar with the study.

>So my point is, do we think we can analyze and find reason for aggravated rape within socioeconomic circumstances?

Possibly. We do not have any information that makes socioeconomic factors irrelevant, and comparable studies strongly tilt the balance in the favour of such an explanation.

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