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Facts about migration and crime in Sweden

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Re: Facts about migration and crime in Sweden

#281

Post by germanier »

yAnonymous wrote: post #254
literallycancer wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> According to the most recent study, people from foreign backgrounds are 2.5 times more likely to be suspected of crimes than people born in Sweden to Swedish-born parents. What do you imply exactly? So Swedish police are more likely to suspect you if you are a foreigner, how unexpected.

In Germany the percentage of foreign suspects about matches with the percentage of convictions, so statistically speaking the suspicions are correct. I'd be surprised if it was different in Sweden, or any other country with similar problems, as it's easy to distinguish the looks of most immigrants and the local population.

> as it's easy to distinguish the looks of most immigrants

It's not. To take Germany as an example, the largest group of foreigners are Turks, followed by Poles and Italians. More than half of foreigner's in Germany are from European countries. On the other hand, many people from that groups are now German citizens and have grand-children that are in Germany in the third generation. A large number of German citizens have foreign born parents and many foreigners are born in Germany. If you can reliably distinguish between immigrants and the rest of the population by the looks your skills would be in high demand.

See https://www.destatis.de/EN/FactsFigures/SocietyState/Populat... for detailed statistics.

Re: Facts about migration and crime in Sweden

#282

Post by yAnonymous »

rmc wrote: post #28
koonsolo wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same as in Belgium then. They even throw stones at fire-fighters when they are doing their job. So nothing to worry about, right? And I don't know if it is the same in Sweden, but you are not really politically allowed to say what kind of people live in those neighborhoods. So again, nothing to worry about.

> Same as in Belgium then. They even throw stones at fire-fighters when they are doing their job. So nothing to worry about, right? Who reports that people do that? Tabloid newspapers? They've been lying about that for decades. After the 1989 Hillsbourogh disaster (where people died due to health & safety issues, and negligence from the police), tabloid newspaper The Sun wrote a full page headline accusing Liverpool…

The same things started happening in Germany and it's widely reported even by left wing media. It'd be almost comical if you called them liars, too.

Re: Facts about migration and crime in Sweden

#283

Post by glormph »

factsaresacred wrote: post #252
otalp wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are your sources that try to prove that socioeconomic factors are not 'the major ones', to the extent that that you can confidently state that it is 'plainly' wrong to attribute differences to poverty and lack of education?

> What are your sources that try to prove that socioeconomic factors are not 'the major ones'? How about the Swedish government themselves? - A 1996 BRA (Swedish Criminal statistics) study found that "there any indication that immigrants in Sweden are discriminated in the courts. Immigrant overrepresentation in registered crime is almost certainly real...nor is it caused by any generally lower social economic status…

I am not arguing against your point, but are there reports which are not 20+ years old?

Also, my understanding of the words may be wrong but I didn't see anyone _justifying_ rape in this thread.

Re: Facts about migration and crime in Sweden

#284

Post by facepalm »

tomlock wrote: post #158
facepalm wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd say THAT is irrelevant. If I become victim of a crime, it doesn't console me if the perpetrator is poor. I just don't want to become a victim of a crime.

So you think it would be fair to suggest the same restrictions on poor people as people are suggesting we place on immigrants?

I think it would make sense to reduce the number of poor people. If taking in immigrants is likely to increase the number of poor people, there is a problem.

The discussion is not about what should be done, only about Sweden's claim that there is no problem. If they say "yes there are criminals, but only because they are poor", they are dodging the issue.

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edit: Hacker News doesn't let me post more comments. So here is the comment I wrote, but I'll probably refrain from further ones:

"poor swedes could be deported and rich immigrants could take their place"

This is already happening in a way - it is called gentrification (not replacement with rich immigrants, but in general rich people will cluster together).

But Swedes formed a "state" and endowed some people with citizenship, but also giving them responsibility for their own people. So their responsibility should be to their own people first. Of course you can argue that forming such a state is immoral, but I think there are some practical arguments in favor of it.

As history has shown, states are very well capable of deporting significant fractions of their citizens, though. But presumably atm Swedes rate the ensurance to not be deported higher than the inconvenience of living with poor people.

The gender angle: yes, that is a popular argument in Germany, "but the refugees are only criminal because they are all men". But it should be possible to take that into account statistically. And even if the higher proportion of males would be the only issue, it still wouldn't change the fact that immigrants are causing problems. After all, they have a higher proportion of males.

Re: Facts about migration and crime in Sweden

#285

Post by dustinmoris »

The problem is not immigration though. The problem is a system which is designed to widen the gap between rich and poor, making it impossible for the poor or less fortunate to break out of this cycle. When you move a whole bunch of poor people into such a system then you force them into crime, no matter what country they come from.

The solution should be to stop creating conflicts in countries which the western world wants to destabilize or dominate because of geo-economical advantages to them, causing war and poverty and then forcing men, women and children to escape into the Western world where they get pushed into ghettos, which leaves them no option other than prostitution and crime.

The solution should not be to stop immigration, but to stop forcing people in other countries to emigrate.

Re: Facts about migration and crime in Sweden

#286

Post by facepalm »

sailingparrot wrote: post #249
nmeofthestate wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, except some immigration adds to the number of people in poverty, so avoiding immigration that does that would address poverty and by extension crime. This is reasonable, unless the theory is that when an immigrant arrives in Sweden, a person already in poverty gets 'promoted' and the immigrant takes their poverty space, thus keeping poverty levels constant.

One of the reason Sweden is welcoming migrants is because the birth rate is becoming really low, so there is need for new workers paying taxes. They are accepting more poors (and by extension statistically more crime-prone) people today, to hopefully have a still sane and stable economy in the future (thus with less poors).

That may be their theory, but where is the validation of the theory? What are the reasons to assume it will work out that way?

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Edit: reason for assuming it won't: there are many countries with a huge population that are nevertheless poor. So number of people alone doesn't seem to help against poverty. Also, there still seem to be poor native Swedish people, so apparently Sweden does not have a working formula for lifting people out of poverty (except giving them government money, but that wouldn't scale in the way you propose - that wouldn't yield more taxes and riches in return).

Re: Facts about migration and crime in Sweden

#287

Post by otalp »

factsaresacred wrote: post #252
otalp wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are your sources that try to prove that socioeconomic factors are not 'the major ones', to the extent that that you can confidently state that it is 'plainly' wrong to attribute differences to poverty and lack of education?

> What are your sources that try to prove that socioeconomic factors are not 'the major ones'? How about the Swedish government themselves? - A 1996 BRA (Swedish Criminal statistics) study found that "there any indication that immigrants in Sweden are discriminated in the courts. Immigrant overrepresentation in registered crime is almost certainly real...nor is it caused by any generally lower social economic status…

Is there a link to an actual government site instead of pictures of a book in Swedish that was published decades ago?

> Besides, socioeconomic factors to justify rape....really?

I'm sorry, but it is really difficult to have a serious conversation with someone unable to differentiate between the process of analyzing reasons for crimes and 'justifying' crimes. That is elementary stuff.

And your point doesn't even make sense. Are you saying rich, well educated muslims or african immigrants are still more likely to rape someone than a white person? Is your argument genetic? If that is not what you are implying - and I'll pay you the complement of assuming it's not, then you will have to at least consider socioeconomic factors.

Re: Facts about migration and crime in Sweden

#288

Post by yummyfajitas »

beefield wrote: post #127
polack wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's totally irrelevant that the crimes has decreased. The point is that a majority of all violence and sexual crimes is performed by immigrants (as confirmed by Sweden's most famous crime professor GW a couple of days ago). Why are you so afraid to see that immigrants are over represented in this category of crimes?

> It's totally irrelevant that the crimes has decreased. That depends. If you are looking for excuses for racism, it obviously is not relevant. But if you claim that the Swedish society has turned dangerous because of the immigrant crimes, it should be highly relevant for the discussion.

A more relevant question is whether immigrants are making Sweden more dangerous than it would otherwise be.

It's possible that Sweden became safer because Swedes commit fewer crimes, and this decrease outweighed a crime increase caused by immigrants. Crime-by-nationality data would help resolve this question. Why is the Swedish government hiding it?

Re: Facts about migration and crime in Sweden

#289

Post by Pxtl »

scribu wrote: post #168
Pxtl wrote: post #104

Can we not do this in HN? I've watched many communities I used to enjoy get ruined by flamewars over Islamophobia and immigration, and I'd rather not see that happen here.

I'd like to think that HN can host civil, fact-based discussions about sensitive issues like these. If it can't, then perhaps the community isn't that special after all.

Staying away from this kind of subject is part of what makes HN special.

Re: Facts about migration and crime in Sweden

#290

Post by facepalm »

croon wrote: post #145
facepalm wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd say THAT is irrelevant. If I become victim of a crime, it doesn't console me if the perpetrator is poor. I just don't want to become a victim of a crime.

The point isn't to console you. The point is to explain why crime happens, so it can be mitigated. Ie: * Stop immigration. OR * Integrate poor people into society, the workforce, etc.

The question was "is there a problem with immigration". How to mitigate crime is only the second step. And it will be difficult to mitigate it if you don't accept the causes.

Of course leftists believe that rich countries like Sweden are to be blamed for the poverty of people from other countries.

I am also not saying poor people shouldn't be helped. But there doesn't seem to be a universally working formula available. Just as there doesn't seem a formula for making strict Muslims tolerant of homosexuality and freedom of women.

If you are hanged by a radical Muslim because you are gay, it doesn't help you that he wouldn't have hanged you if only he had received the right educational interventions beforehand.

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Edit: sure, Christians can be dangerous radicals, too. If they were a significant part of refugees, that would be topical, too. The problem seems, rather, that many refugees come from countries that skipped the enlightenment and are stuck in the middle ages in some things. I don't have statistics on radical muslims, but there are whole countries where gays are being hanged. You can google the pictures yourself.

Here is a list of "Ehrenmorde" in Germany: http://www.ehrenmord.de/doku/2016/doku_2016.php

Ehrenmorde are cases were people are being murdered by family members (usually brothers murdering their sisters, but sometimes also men are the victims) for bringing "shame" to the family - like having extramarital sex, leaving the religion, stuff like that.

Some of the freedoms we take for granted are simply not taken for granted in other cultures. And I don't think there exists a formula for convincing people from such cultures of our values.

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