What could happen if you refuse to unlock your phone at the US border? • Hacker News Board

Re: What could happen if you refuse to unlock your phone at the US border?

#441

Post by sandworm101 » Fri, Feb 17, 2017, 2:13 AM UTC

mahyarm wrote: post #369

sandworm101 wrote: post #238

Ive got a trick. As a lawyer i keep a note on my laptop deacribing how it is encrypted (linux, home dirctories + trucrypt archives for important stuff) and that content is subject to attorney-client privacy rules. Ive been asked to unlock several times. I say "sure thing, but ill need some sort of court order so i dont get sued." Faced with a reasonable person willing to unlock, they have never pushed the matter. For…

Does that only work if your a US citizen? If your not then bye bye visa?

Canadian, so no visa req for visits. Special temp visa for lawyer work, issued at boarder crossing. They dont get mad. The trick is to be reasonable. They know it will be difficult to get an order/warrant to search a lawyer's machine. Lawyer-client confidentiality is one of the few things that trumps even terrorism.

Re: What could happen if you refuse to unlock your phone at the US border?

#442

Post by type0 » Fri, Feb 17, 2017, 2:15 AM UTC

angry_octet wrote: post #422

Accacin wrote: post #385

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't want to be one of those people who go on about the fact that they're not on Facebook, but what if they asked me for my Facebook logins and I told them I don't have any social media accounts? (I mean, bar Github if you count that as a social network).

If you are telling the truth you will be fine. But if you do have a facebook account and you lie about it you could be in trouble (it is an offence to lie to federal agents).

What would you do if you have an account but haven't used it for many years, lost your access to the email that you registered it with and don't remember the password. Are you genuinely a liar then?

Re: What could happen if you refuse to unlock your phone at the US border?

#443

Post by type0 » Fri, Feb 17, 2017, 2:30 AM UTC

whatever_dude wrote: post #296

pc86 wrote: post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Entering Brazil as a US citizen was an interesting experience. Long pseudo-interrogation, fingerprinting, the whole nine yards. It wasn't until later I learned they basically just decided to do to all US citizens what the US was doing to Brazilians (and certainly others).

Brazil has a weird policy (the "reciprocity" law) that makes them apply to visitors from some countries whatever that country applies to visitors from Brazil. In theory that only applies to what kind of visas are necessary, but often they do so in terms of immigration/customs policy too. So yeah, a while ago the US started requiring electronic fingerprints from Brazilian visitors (and everyone else I think?) so that'…

It does make sense to do this, more countries need to stand up and say if you treat our citizens this way we are going treat yours the same. I mean the travelers interact with border control and the citizens are the only ones who legitimately can bring these complains to their border agencies. Ultimately it comes to be that citizens need to defend non-citizens rights and "reciprocity" policy might be effective because most people only act on their selfish interests.

Re: What could happen if you refuse to unlock your phone at the US border?

#444

Post by prawn » Fri, Feb 17, 2017, 2:32 AM UTC

drusepth wrote: post #323

tom_mellior wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You mean they actually find emails saying "good luck with your illegal work in Australia on a tourist visa, lol"?

I got a not-quite-as-bad grilling at the UK CBP, where they required me to log into my banking apps and show them my accounts & balances, as well as transaction histories to determine whether I was currently working remotely (and, therefore, would continue "illegally" working remotely while in the country).

Decade ago they were doing that in the UK. Showing proof of funds when you arrived.

Had one trip to the US where they asked how much money I was carrying. I said none, just a credit card. They asked if I were planning to work there. I said no, I'll pull money from the debit card as I go. They (presumably) acted puzzled about this.

Re: What could happen if you refuse to unlock your phone at the US border?

#445

Post by PeterisP » Fri, Feb 17, 2017, 2:33 AM UTC

bitJericho wrote: post #437

PeterisP wrote: post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Call me cynical, but I believe that those concerns are totally unfounded because the "evil government" doesn't need your FB login for that, IMHO they most likely can access that information directly without your consent. I would be really surprised if they really had to do this mass harvesting of profiles based on a series of one-time access to individual profiles of a small fraction of population; They had much more…

In one breath you say the government would coordinate sharing fb data, in the other you say they don't. Which one is it?

Where does it look like I am I saying that multiple agencies would coordinate sharing FB data? I feel that the parent post was needlessly worrying about a risk of e.g. border teams using unlocked phones as a routine way to harvest data and hand it over to e.g. NSA or whatever "evil government" snooping agency they'd be worried about, because (a) NSA doesn't need this assistance because they are likely to have better mass collection methods on their own, and (b) they wouldn't coordinate this with a large number of DHS grunts, neither by asking them to gather data nor by providing them with a list of all data that they have. DHS is likely to have a lot of data themselves, but anyway unlocking a phone provides extra information in a simple&practical manner.

Re: What could happen if you refuse to unlock your phone at the US border?

#446

Post by nyxtom » Fri, Feb 17, 2017, 2:48 AM UTC

Worth noting that the DHS has the authority to take your device, copy the contents, and share any information they found on a case-by-case basis. It seems likely that the standard practice will be to simply copy the content wholesale and use it for importing into a system for analysis/flagging/later sharing and completing the network identity. Effectively, handing over your phone completes the picture in terms of network analysis. They have your facial/physical identity, all your communications, your photos, downloads...etc. This seems to also apply to laptops as well and it's likely that they can also just copy all that over as well without discretion. Make no mistake, the authority is far-reaching and completely unchecked.

https://www.dhs.gov/xlibrary/assets/privacy/privacy_pia_cbp_...

" While CBP Officers are responsible for the examination of electronic devices, only Supervisors may authorize the copying of the contents of an electronic device.54 Where an electronic device is to be detained or seized by CBP, a CBP Supervisor must approve of the detention or seizure, and the CBP Officer must provide a completed CF 6051D or S, respectively, to the traveler.55 Where a traveler claims that the contents of the electronic device contain attorney-client or other privileged material, the CBP Officer must consult with the local Associate/Assistant Chief Counsel or United States Attorney’s Office before conducting the examination.56 CBP Supervisors may authorize the sharing of the traveler’s information for assistance or other law enforcement purpose on a case-by-case basis "

Re: What could happen if you refuse to unlock your phone at the US border?

#447

Post by nyxtom » Fri, Feb 17, 2017, 2:52 AM UTC

nyxtom wrote: post #446

Worth noting that the DHS has the authority to take your device, copy the contents, and share any information they found on a case-by-case basis. It seems likely that the standard practice will be to simply copy the content wholesale and use it for importing into a system for analysis/flagging/later sharing and completing the network identity. Effectively, handing over your phone completes the picture in terms of net…

This part is deeply troubling:

"ICE has various safeguards in place to protect electronic devices that are detained or seized, or information from a device that is detained during a border search.

ICE stores all electronic devices, or information thereof, in locked cabinets and rooms and maintains a chain of custody using appropriate ICE forms and systems.

If a copy of information is made from the electronic device to allow the traveler to leave the port of entry with his device, the first copy is known as the “gold copy.” The chain of custody stays with the original or gold copy so that it may be used as evidence in court, if necessary. A new chain of custody form is issued to follow any additional copy of the data that is made; such forms are tracked by ICE Special Agents in the appropriate ICE systems. By policy, ICE’s review of detained information is to be completed in a reasonable time and, if the original device has been detained by ICE, the ICE Special Agent must provide a chain of custody form to the traveler as a receipt.

Special Agents must factor in the time necessary for any assistance that may be required when determining “reasonable time.”

Once the border search is completed, the detained device will either be seized or returned to the traveler and any copy of the data from the device will be retained for law enforcement purposes and in accordance with the established retention periods for any system of records in which it is stored or destroyed "

Re: What could happen if you refuse to unlock your phone at the US border?

#448

Post by type0 » Fri, Feb 17, 2017, 2:53 AM UTC

anon2264 wrote: post #426

gph wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe. Seems like the FBI and federal agencies were harassing dissidents a lot worse in the 60s and 70s through COINTELPRO than they are now. I don't know if it's really worse now so much as different with new avenues of harassment into our digital lives. You think dissidents weren't harassed at the border before everyone carried a cell phone? The post I was replying to was basically a vague reference to creeping fas…

Are you able to provide sources for the position you put forth about similar US harassment of political dissidents decades ago? Obama prosecuted more journalists and whistle blowers than any president in history. And we're not talking about turning into Nazi Germany. We're talking about why government crimes against their own people, especially for political speech, should never be allowed to happen because they can…

> And we're not talking about turning into Nazi Germany. We're talking about why government crimes against their own people, especially for political speech, should never be allowed to happen because they can result in worse outcomes than you would expect.

And Germany didn't turn up Nazi overnight. It's always a slippery slope to prosecute people for political purposes. What happens in Canada with it misuse of human rights tribunal and what happens in many other western countries where the social climate currently is that everyone considers to be okay to suppress free speech because someones feelings are hurt. It is not a human right to be able to silence uncomfortable opinions, yet it is exactly what we see in these phenomenon of social justice warriors only there is no justice there to be made. This entitlement and the need to control of others is actually what scares me the most. You see it everywhere, people in uniforms and people in academia specially social sciences.

Re: What could happen if you refuse to unlock your phone at the US border?

#449

Post by caf » Fri, Feb 17, 2017, 2:55 AM UTC

zeveb wrote: post #366

dave_sullivan wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Real" spies and terrorists and whatever can obviously afford to setup enough cover. > It's bizarre how people don't think ahead to their border crossing and are willing to admit they are going to live with their SO, or work as a nanny -- while under a tourism visa. So we're not catching "real" spies and terrorists; we're catching nannies trying to get paid under the table; do you think maybe we've got bigger fish…

> So we're not catching "real" spies and terrorists; we're catching nannies trying to get paid under the table; do you think maybe we've got bigger fish to fry? This is a bad precedent, and what are we gaining? Nothing. A country which controls its borders gains … control of its borders. If it's illegal to enter a country as a tourist in order to live with one's girlfriend, well it's illegal to enter that country as…

That doesn't address the question of balance between the seriousness of the illegality and the invasiveness of the investigatory technique.

It would certainly be feasible to require every vehicle to be fitted with a data/position logger so that a vast number of hitherto undetected breaches of the laws governing the road can be immediately detected and punished - but it's pretty clear that the invasiveness of this is not worth the gains in compliance.

Re: What could happen if you refuse to unlock your phone at the US border?

#450

Post by caf » Fri, Feb 17, 2017, 3:03 AM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #373

zeveb wrote: post #365

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They just have to decide you're suspicious enough to confiscate equipment and bar you from entry. That's fine with me. I don't take anything to a foreign country which I'm not willing to lose, and I have no problem turning around & heading back home if the country I wish to visit turns out to have unacceptable rules. If someday I visit someplace that has an implicit rule, 'all visitors must have Facebook accounts,'…

Hold on, once again, because you're oversimplifying the situation here. You might be comfortable being turned back at the US border, but there are plenty of people who aren't in that situation --- they're children, or are coming to take care of their children, &c --- and being turned back at the border can mean it's very difficult to return to the country under any circumstances for years afterwards.

One of the pieces of important advice I am planning on passing on to my children is: Never have children with someone who has citizenship of a country that you don't.