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What could happen if you refuse to unlock your phone at the US border?

arstechnica.com

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Re: What could happen if you refuse to unlock your phone at the US border?

#321

Post by alainv »

dave_sullivan wrote: post #281
coldtea wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> China is willing to kidnap people out of Thailand [1]; people being arrested over political tweets [2]; Russia can poison people [3], shoot them [4], or have them accused of fake crimes[5]. I really hope the U.S. never comes close to this Well, the US can drone-kill people (including bystanders irrelevant to the primary non-tried target), abduct them from all over the world and transport them with no trial to Guant…

Totally agree. Starting with "Well," suggests it somehow negates my point though. I think "Also" would be more appropriate, which kind of acknowledges the problems in other countries I cited while also pointing out very real weaknesses in America's justice system. This might seem pedantic, but the common reply I see to "this country does bad stuff" reduces to "well this country does bad stuff too!" It's not a product…

But... your previous post specifically says "China is willing to kidnap people out of Thailand" and goes on to say "I really hope the U.S. never comes close to this".

Can you explain how exactly the U.S. has yet to "come close to" your list? Your post created the very "us vs them" separation you now claim to disagree with. The child post was fairly clearly just answering that statement

And while we're talking deflection, you are the one who took a thread about the US border and its impact on travellers and made it about civil rights abuses by the rest of the world. Yes, they are all important; no, it is usually not possible to solve them all at once.

Re: What could happen if you refuse to unlock your phone at the US border?

#322

Post by PeterisP »

M_Grey wrote: post #102
tptacek wrote: post #3

Worth remembering: US citizens can play chicken with CBP and lose nothing more than their computer/phone hardware (perhaps having it returned 6 months later). But non-citizens, possibly including LPRs, cannot: if an alien attempts to cross the border with a device they can't unlock "because they don't have the corresponding 2FA token with them" (as one friend suggested they do), they'll be detained, their devices con…

Solution: No Facebook (which is a solution to so many other problems too), partition and hide what you don't want browsed by some inept CBP agent, and then play your part in their security theatre. It might even be nice if someone could make some programs that offer false home screens for various devices that only open when a given password is input... your CBP "clean slate". Don't say, "I don't have x,y,z..." accoun…

"Have your real identity online not be publically linked to your real identity" is actually not so simple, as it requires cooperation of everyone you know. Would your mom, spouse or boss have your "account that you never use" in their social network contacts or your real online identity?

All kinds of advertising companies and spammers have such information obtained from people who share their contact list with some free app, providing a permanent link between your real name (which they entered in their contact list), your real phone number, and various online accounts. Would you be so sure that the gov't agents don't have it? IIRC there were some cases where some agencies simply bought such data from advertising info aggregators.

Re: What could happen if you refuse to unlock your phone at the US border?

#323

Post by drusepth »

tom_mellior wrote: post #137
leesalminen wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Normally it's young people entering Australia to work "under the table" and only have a student/tourist visa. They denied entry for this reason very frequently.

You mean they actually find emails saying "good luck with your illegal work in Australia on a tourist visa, lol"?

I got a not-quite-as-bad grilling at the UK CBP, where they required me to log into my banking apps and show them my accounts & balances, as well as transaction histories to determine whether I was currently working remotely (and, therefore, would continue "illegally" working remotely while in the country).

Re: What could happen if you refuse to unlock your phone at the US border?

#324

Post by cosmotron »

tzs wrote: post #237

What happens if you try to mail or ship a smartphone across the border, as opposed to carry it with you when you are crossing the border? I'm wondering if you could ship your regular phone ahead, and use a burner while you are traveling. If that works, that could be an interesting business opportunity. Set up a series of phone exchange stations near major airports, where outgoing travelers can swap their smartphone f…

Thing in transit are not invulnerable to tampering; see the story of NSA intercepting Cisco networking hardware and implanting beacons. [1]

[1] https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2014/05/photos-of-an-nsa...

Re: What could happen if you refuse to unlock your phone at the US border?

#325

Post by drusepth »

purple-again wrote: post #98
tornadoboy55 wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your method also only works if you have a small social circle or don't go out much. Good luck planning a big party or trip without a Whatsapp/Telegram/Facebook group chat..

You understand that society did just fine for thousands of years without these things right? Maybe if you are 20 the social norms have changed so drastically that calling someone is unthinkable but I rather doubt that. Certainly for my generation and above ('84) it's not required.

While I generally agree with your sentiment, FWIW I'm a 25-year-old and I haven't answered a non-work phone call in several years. If friends/family want to contact me, they can send an IM or leave a voicemail and hope I call voicemail in the next week or two.

I haven't even had the sound/vibrate on my phone turned on for about a year now (which, honestly, is probably the most liberating decision I've made since then), as there's nothing in my life that can't wait however long it is until I check my phone next.

Re: What could happen if you refuse to unlock your phone at the US border?

#326

Post by appleflaxen »

gph wrote: post #142
Zak wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is more an issue of practice than theory. Every country might claim the authority to search phones, but if they never actually use it, there is no concern entering those countries in a practical sense.

And considering that something like 0.01% of travelers into the US are ever affected by this, you could say in a practical sense there is no concern here either. That's basically a rounding error worth away from 0%. In fact it sounds more like they generally target specific individuals based on their politics or whatever red flag gets thrown on them from the system. That's certainly dangerous in a way, but in essence…

Saying that a breach of due process is ok because it's not very frequent is a really short-sighted position.

Re: What could happen if you refuse to unlock your phone at the US border?

#327

Post by donald123 »

hughes wrote: post #279
tzs wrote: post #237

What happens if you try to mail or ship a smartphone across the border, as opposed to carry it with you when you are crossing the border? I'm wondering if you could ship your regular phone ahead, and use a burner while you are traveling. If that works, that could be an interesting business opportunity. Set up a series of phone exchange stations near major airports, where outgoing travelers can swap their smartphone f…

Creating a business with the purpose of circumventing border control is unlikely to be appreciated or permitted by authorities in any country. Probably better off just leaving your smartphone at home and buying a device at your destination.

The purpose of the business will be transferring people's digital devices securely, NOT circumventing border control.

But I think any company does this as their main business would get on the CBP's hot list.

Re: What could happen if you refuse to unlock your phone at the US border?

#328

Post by appleflaxen »

gph wrote: post #226
anon2264 wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"First they came for a few people for their political beliefs, and I did not speak out because I was not one of those people..." Do you know how that one ended?

Yea, nice. The Government/Law enforcement harassing dissidents at the border is definitely equivalent to the Nazis rounding up and executing political and religious minorities. /s Not to make light of this issue, it's a serious matter, but don't be ridiculous.

That's not the point. The point is that when you say "the ends justify the means", you are putting the rule of law below what is personally convenient for you. And if you can do that, then anyone can do that. And when anyone can do that, then you have a clear path towards authoritarianism.

Re: What could happen if you refuse to unlock your phone at the US border?

#329

Post by MichaelGG »

TheGRS wrote: post #302
MichaelGG wrote: post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're gaining a more efficient CBP, enforcing visa rules and avoiding overstays like they do now, just with higher accuracy. Now if you want to argue that visa classes are silly and the US should just let anyone come in for whatever, fine, but that's a totally different argument. And yes, it's possible that this isn't worth the gains to CBP. But the US is pretty powerful and can force quite a bit of crap on people w…

Enforcing visas through violating privacy seems like a good enough argument against this practice to me. What you're also gaining is a precedent to enforce more searches that look through not just your public life, but also the intimate parts that the government really doesn't have much business in analyzing.

Yep you're right and this is the kind of arguments people should be making.

Re: What could happen if you refuse to unlock your phone at the US border?

#330

Post by grey-area »

nojvek wrote: post #222
grey-area wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really hope the U.S. never comes close to this and hope I see this trend reversed in my lifetime. But people should be aware that it can happen in a modern society and is already happening in large parts of the world. The US has kidnapped people from Italy, and assassinated its own child citizens. The US (and most western countries) are already close to this, it's just that most citizens felt they were immune up ti…

It's amazing that with the forces of globalization and Internet we think of the planet as whole and then a new government flips to us vs them mentality reversing peace work of years. Less humans kill other humans now than ever in the past. I wonder if the media is to blame for the fear mongering?

I agree, globally many important indicators are positive in the long term but we shouldn't be complacent because perception and relative wealth over time can be more important to people than reality.

https://ourworldindata.org/a-history-of-global-living-condit...

The recent rise in nationalism after the 2008 crash is eerily similar to post 29. Globalisation has caused discontents, even if they are unjustified and the solutions proposed by demagogues are absurd and damaging, they appeal to some. Re the media, no I don't think so, humans are tribal and not very rational.

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