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What could happen if you refuse to unlock your phone at the US border?

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Re: What could happen if you refuse to unlock your phone at the US border?

#221

Post by manojlds »

refurb wrote: post #124
thrusong wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've never had a nice experience returning to Canada (either by plane or car) after a trip to the US or Mexico. I get the full "random search" in a secluded room every single time.

Same here! When I was on a green card, I got grilled probably 30% of the time going to Canada. We're talking accusations of smuggling a car into the country and harsh questions about exactly what family I was visiting. Going back to the US (even as a non-citizen!) I usually just got a "Welcome home!".

As an Indian that used to live in Canada for some time, I got the same "Welcome home" with a smile from Canadian immigration. I still miss that as I don't even get that when I actually come home to India.

Re: What could happen if you refuse to unlock your phone at the US border?

#222

Post by nojvek »

grey-area wrote: post #187
dave_sullivan wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with you. Asia and Eastern Europe are off the list for me too. China is willing to kidnap people out of Thailand [1]; people being arrested over political tweets [2]; Russia can poison people [3], shoot them [4], or have them accused of fake crimes[5]. I really hope the U.S. never comes close to this and hope I see this trend reversed in my lifetime. But people should be aware that it can happen in a modern s…

I really hope the U.S. never comes close to this and hope I see this trend reversed in my lifetime. But people should be aware that it can happen in a modern society and is already happening in large parts of the world. The US has kidnapped people from Italy, and assassinated its own child citizens. The US (and most western countries) are already close to this, it's just that most citizens felt they were immune up ti…

It's amazing that with the forces of globalization and Internet we think of the planet as whole and then a new government flips to us vs them mentality reversing peace work of years.

Less humans kill other humans now than ever in the past. I wonder if the media is to blame for the fear mongering?

Re: What could happen if you refuse to unlock your phone at the US border?

#223

Post by ghostDancer »

danbruc wrote: post #85

How is this not in violation of international law, especially the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights [1] article 17, which would apply to US citizens as well as non-US citizens? No one shall be subjected to arbitrary or unlawful interference with his privacy, family, home or correspondence, nor to unlawful attacks on his honour and reputation. Maybe even article 9 if the law does not clearly establi…

The respect that USA shows for international laws is more or less on pair with the value of human rights in Guantanamo.

Re: What could happen if you refuse to unlock your phone at the US border?

#224

Post by graeme »

tptacek wrote: post #210
graeme wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

--> The current best practice for border crossings --- really anywhere in the world --- is simply not to carry anything you're unwilling to unlock for Customs. How do password managers play into this? I'm likely going to be traveling to the US on business. I'll be bringing a travel phone rather than a normal phone (This is my standard travel practice for any country). I could do the same with a computer. I don't mind…

If you're not a citizen, I think this is probably pretty simple: don't carry anything across the border that you would be uncomfortable being forced to unlock. There's nothing you can encrypt with a passphrase that is protected from a border search, unless you're comfortable being sent back home, losing your computer hardware, and not being allowed back to the US at least until the next Presidential administration, p…

Right. Since they may ask for social media passwords, would that imply making a travel profile for my travel devices that has password access to things like Facebook and a subset of sites I'd need, but not necessarily all 400+ of my logins?

I don't care if they login to my Facebook (well, I think I don't). I just don't want to have them have everything, because then I'd have to change it all.

To be very clear, not planning to use any encryption strategies. And as you mentioned, being unable to access Facebook is not a sensible option. My question is about what to bring, not how to secure it.

Re: What could happen if you refuse to unlock your phone at the US border?

#225

Post by danbruc »

bflesch wrote: post #211
danbruc wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would be kind of okay with this if I could just turn around. We think you are a risk, either show us your phone - and we may or may not allow you to enter after looking at it - or take the next airplane home. It would be nice, if you would tell me this before I waste my time and money to go on the flight so that I can decide in advance if I am willing to find out how looking at my phone will influence your assessme…

The country you're travelling to doesn't owe you anything. In some areas of the world, border guards will shoot or rob you. If you don't take part in any shit that annoys the powers that be, you will most likely never be approached by border guards at all. I really think that as citizens of the western world we are in no position to argue that travelling between countries is bad or cumbersome for us. Edit: To answer…

Every country owes you basic human rights. Sure, even basic human rights are just a concept humans invented and you can certainly have a country that just says no, we believe the idea of basic human rights is wrong. That would certainly be a very nice place to live. I on the other hand would certainly refrain from visiting it.

Re: What could happen if you refuse to unlock your phone at the US border?

#226

Post by gph »

anon2264 wrote: post #220
gph wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And considering that something like 0.01% of travelers into the US are ever affected by this, you could say in a practical sense there is no concern here either. That's basically a rounding error worth away from 0%. In fact it sounds more like they generally target specific individuals based on their politics or whatever red flag gets thrown on them from the system. That's certainly dangerous in a way, but in essence…

"First they came for a few people for their political beliefs, and I did not speak out because I was not one of those people..." Do you know how that one ended?

Yea, nice. The Government/Law enforcement harassing dissidents at the border is definitely equivalent to the Nazis rounding up and executing political and religious minorities. /s

Not to make light of this issue, it's a serious matter, but don't be ridiculous.

Re: What could happen if you refuse to unlock your phone at the US border?

#227

Post by koheripbal »

westbywest wrote: post #218
M_Grey wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Solution: No Facebook (which is a solution to so many other problems too), partition and hide what you don't want browsed by some inept CBP agent, and then play your part in their security theatre. It might even be nice if someone could make some programs that offer false home screens for various devices that only open when a given password is input... your CBP "clean slate". Don't say, "I don't have x,y,z..." accoun…

Given that border agents may go as far as cloning hard drive contents, what advantage does an additional partition have? A thorough search may uncover the hidden/encrypted partition, which then becomes another item for which you'd be requested to provide "technical assistance."

They aren't going to inspect the HD partitions at the border. They clone for a later time - at which point, you'd already be admitted and are not obliged to assist them.

Re: What could happen if you refuse to unlock your phone at the US border?

#228

Post by anon2264 »

tptacek wrote: post #128
adekok wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Or, to simply stop traveling to countries that refuse to play nice with the rights of foreigners. s/foreigners/citizens/ i.e. everyone . I'm a Canadian Citizen. When I enter Canada from abroad, they claim the same rights as the US CBP. http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/alain-philippon-cb...

I was detained and aggressively searched at the Canadian border (Montana/Alberta, for about 2 hours) in 1997; not because they thought I was a terrorist, but because they wanted to confirm that I wasn't coming to Canada to work. Friends of mine were turned back at the Canadian border later that same year. Canada has always claimed these rights.

Tagential but is it not absolutely bizzare that at the US/Can border relocating to work is seen as a deadly sin, while broader US policy has brought so many immigrants into the country since JFK? Without saying either side is right or wrong, US Gov policy wholistically appears schizophrenic

Re: What could happen if you refuse to unlock your phone at the US border?

#229

Post by 67726e »

dave_sullivan wrote: post #186
MichaelGG wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn't to catch terrorism. Though they'll probably get a few idiot "extremists", this will mostly stop people coming in under false pretenses. It's bizarre how people don't think ahead to their border crossing and are willing to admit they are going to live with their SO, or work as a nanny -- while under a tourism visa. It'll be very effective at this. Most people aren't going to establish a plausible social med…

> "Real" spies and terrorists and whatever can obviously afford to setup enough cover. > It's bizarre how people don't think ahead to their border crossing and are willing to admit they are going to live with their SO, or work as a nanny -- while under a tourism visa. So we're not catching "real" spies and terrorists; we're catching nannies trying to get paid under the table; do you think maybe we've got bigger fish…

Rule of Law.

Re: What could happen if you refuse to unlock your phone at the US border?

#230

Post by cabalamat »

tptacek wrote: post #3

Worth remembering: US citizens can play chicken with CBP and lose nothing more than their computer/phone hardware (perhaps having it returned 6 months later). But non-citizens, possibly including LPRs, cannot: if an alien attempts to cross the border with a device they can't unlock "because they don't have the corresponding 2FA token with them" (as one friend suggested they do), they'll be detained, their devices con…

> CBP will begin asking everyone for Facebook logins

If they asked me I would answer, honestly, "I've no idea what my password is, it's always logged in on my computer".

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