What could happen if you refuse to unlock your phone at the US border? • Hacker News Board

Re: What could happen if you refuse to unlock your phone at the US border?

#191

Post by bitwize » Thu, Feb 16, 2017, 4:45 PM UTC

iak8god wrote: post #133

rayiner wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated... Your phone is undoubtedly your "effects" (in 1789, touching your phone without your consent would have been a trespass to chattel). But searches incident to a border crossing have always been considered not "unreasonable," because inspecting the flow of things acro…

> But searches incident to a border crossing have always been considered not "unreasonable," because inspecting the flow of things across the border has always been seen as a legitimate government function. ... > So searches of digital content are at least outside one of the key purposes of the border search exception. Yes. And also, who in their right mind would use a phone and an airline ticket to smuggle at most 3…

Johnny Mnemonic.

Re: What could happen if you refuse to unlock your phone at the US border?

#192

Post by gambiting » Thu, Feb 16, 2017, 4:46 PM UTC

tom_mellior wrote: post #137

leesalminen wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Normally it's young people entering Australia to work "under the table" and only have a student/tourist visa. They denied entry for this reason very frequently.

You mean they actually find emails saying "good luck with your illegal work in Australia on a tourist visa, lol"?

No, but a text saying "we'll see you at work 8am on Monday" as you are entering Australia is probably good enough reason to be denied entry if you have a tourist visa.

Re: What could happen if you refuse to unlock your phone at the US border?

#193

Post by graeme » Thu, Feb 16, 2017, 4:46 PM UTC

Rarebox wrote: post #181

graeme wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

--> The current best practice for border crossings --- really anywhere in the world --- is simply not to carry anything you're unwilling to unlock for Customs. How do password managers play into this? I'm likely going to be traveling to the US on business. I'll be bringing a travel phone rather than a normal phone (This is my standard travel practice for any country). I could do the same with a computer. I don't mind…

Could you just bring a device with freshly installed Windows / OSX, and clone the whole disk image over the internet once you're inside U.S. ?

Well, yes. But as tptacek said:

"But non-citizens, possibly including LPRs, cannot: if an alien attempts to cross the border with a device they can't unlock "because they don't have the corresponding 2FA token with them" (as one friend suggested they do), they'll be detained, their devices confiscated, and then put on a flight out of the country."

I'm not a US citizen. I don't have anything in particular I care about the CBP seeing. But, I'd rather they not have all of my 400 passwords. I'd then have to change everything, and also be breaking a bunch of bank terms of service.

I don't think CBP actually wants my bank info. But with all passwords in a manager, they would get it if they had access. However, with no passwords, they may bar entry.

Re: What could happen if you refuse to unlock your phone at the US border?

#194

Post by ipsin » Thu, Feb 16, 2017, 4:47 PM UTC

yawz wrote: post #138

The question I have in mind is "do they have the right to confiscate your device or to disappear with it?". What if I told them "I'm going to unlock it, but I'm the driver. Ask me all that you want to see, and I'll take you to that app?".

Accounts I've read of this, no you do not get to drive, at all.

They will take it into a back room, do things you won't get to see, and you may get it back when they're done with you, or they may keep it (example: [1]).

If you're a security researcher, or property paranoid, you can then dispose of the device in some way, because you have no idea what they did to it, the device firmware, baseband, etc. Probably nothing, right? But the time and effort it'd take to vet it all is prohibitive.

[1] https://www.cnet.com/news/researcher-detained-at-u-s-border-...

Re: What could happen if you refuse to unlock your phone at the US border?

#195

Post by jacquesm » Thu, Feb 16, 2017, 4:48 PM UTC

mikeash wrote: post #188

jacquesm wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The current best practice for border crossings --- really anywhere in the world --- is simply not to carry anything you're unwilling to unlock for Customs. Or, to simply stop traveling to countries that refuse to play nice with the rights of foreigners. The whole idea that this sort of thing is even anywhere near acceptable behavior revolts me.

That may be easy for people who live in other countries, but keep in mind that it's not "simply" for the millions of non-citizens who legally live here.

I was in a position to move the the USA about 10 years ago and decided against it because I foresaw quite a bit of the developments since then. So indeed, that's not simple once you have made that choice. But for some it may be a reason to move back to where they originally hailed from and in my circle of friends this is already happening (and many more people are talking about it and considering it).

This is going to hurt America quite a bit by the time it has run its course.

Re: What could happen if you refuse to unlock your phone at the US border?

#196

Post by danbruc » Thu, Feb 16, 2017, 4:49 PM UTC

bflesch wrote: post #160

danbruc wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only if the software or procedures do a reasonable job at selecting people. It is hard to tell from the outside whether this is the case but the cases that became publicly known at least suggest that the system is not flawless and also seems to pick people with opinions or doing things the US disapproves but which are not illegal. How much information must be provided is certainly debatable. Article 9 continues as fo…

I am astonished by your entitlement. The state has no obligation to tell you about the inner workings of their selection / profiling process. All that counts is safety of its citizens. If I'm not a citizen and representatives of the country I want to enter tell me that they think I am a risk, the systems actually works. Of all these one-sided stories we are hearing one wonders about what kind of darknet "activism" so…

I would be kind of okay with this if I could just turn around. We think you are a risk, either show us your phone - and we may or may not allow you to enter after looking at it - or take the next airplane home. It would be nice, if you would tell me this before I waste my time and money to go on the flight so that I can decide in advance if I am willing to find out how looking at my phone will influence your assessment of me. But I certainly see how telling this in advance would be problematic or undesirable.

But once you start to arrest me, I really want to know why you are doing this and I surely think that I am entitled to get this information. You don't have to tell me which undersea cables you tapped to get your information but just telling me that you think I am violating an unspecified law certainly doesn't cut it.

I am still a human not found guilty by any court and you need good reasons to take away my freedom, citizen or not. And you owe me an explanation so that I can take appropriate measures to resolve the situation.

Re: What could happen if you refuse to unlock your phone at the US border?

#197

Post by smoe » Thu, Feb 16, 2017, 4:50 PM UTC

Turing_Machine wrote: post #99

jacquesm wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The current best practice for border crossings --- really anywhere in the world --- is simply not to carry anything you're unwilling to unlock for Customs. Or, to simply stop traveling to countries that refuse to play nice with the rights of foreigners. The whole idea that this sort of thing is even anywhere near acceptable behavior revolts me.

"Or, to simply stop traveling to countries that refuse to play nice with the rights of foreigners. " Which countries would those be? As far as I know, every country (or quasi-country, such as the EU) asserts the right to carry out a full inspection of anything crossing its border.

As far as I know, Swiss border police/customs officers (which often operate at random places in the country, not necessarily at the border) are not allowed to check the content of any electronic device without a search warrant.

They can ask you to unlock the phone and show the IMEI number when suspicious of theft, but that's about it.

Source: friend of mine worked there.

Re: What could happen if you refuse to unlock your phone at the US border?

#198

Post by jacquesm » Thu, Feb 16, 2017, 4:50 PM UTC

knz wrote: post #91

MichaelGG wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn't to catch terrorism. Though they'll probably get a few idiot "extremists", this will mostly stop people coming in under false pretenses. It's bizarre how people don't think ahead to their border crossing and are willing to admit they are going to live with their SO, or work as a nanny -- while under a tourism visa. It'll be very effective at this. Most people aren't going to establish a plausible social med…

Living with your SO under a tourism visa isn't a crime as long as you leave before your visa expires... And is it the role of CPB to prevent under the table employment? Surely there are better ways to address that issue if it's a concern. Building walls and inspecting social media seems like a political smoke screen for avoiding more effective enforcement measures - requiring farmers/factories/roofing companies to pr…

As if it is only illegals that are being paid under the table.

Re: What could happen if you refuse to unlock your phone at the US border?

#199

Post by gregmac » Thu, Feb 16, 2017, 4:51 PM UTC

graeme wrote: post #162

tptacek wrote: post #3

Worth remembering: US citizens can play chicken with CBP and lose nothing more than their computer/phone hardware (perhaps having it returned 6 months later). But non-citizens, possibly including LPRs, cannot: if an alien attempts to cross the border with a device they can't unlock "because they don't have the corresponding 2FA token with them" (as one friend suggested they do), they'll be detained, their devices con…

--> The current best practice for border crossings --- really anywhere in the world --- is simply not to carry anything you're unwilling to unlock for Customs. How do password managers play into this? I'm likely going to be traveling to the US on business. I'll be bringing a travel phone rather than a normal phone (This is my standard travel practice for any country). I could do the same with a computer. I don't mind…

> But then this raises a further issue: do I keep social media passwords on that list, or leave them off? If I kept them off, I could honestly say "I can't login. I didn't want distracting social media on a business trip".

To go a step further, what if you don't even have a Facebook account? How do you even prove that, if there are other accounts with the same name as you that show up when searching (and the profile picture is not sufficient to rule it out)?

> I'm not sure of the risks of having CBP log into Facebook.

There's a non-zero chance you're going to be detained and grilled if any of your friends have talked about terrorism, drugs, have criminal records, or are on or share a name with someone on a terrorist watch list (and that may extend to their friends or further).

They could also potentially take a copy of your friends list, posts or any other content and do who knows what with it at some point in the future.

Re: What could happen if you refuse to unlock your phone at the US border?

#200

Post by yread » Thu, Feb 16, 2017, 4:53 PM UTC

purple-again wrote: post #114

mikeash wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why limit it to international travel? People can learn how to kill without leaving the country. We need random checkpoints set up on major highways (and occasionally on minor roads, just to ensure you can't reliably bypass them) to stop and search people to ensure they aren't up to anything nefarious. Actually, it needs to go ever further. You can get up to a lot of trouble without even leaving your home. The police…

Ridiculous arguments don't foster rational debate. We know their are training camps abroad. We know there are no training camps within our borders. What if space aliens are controlling our leaders brains?

> We know there are no training camps within our borders

You're probably talking about US but for EU it might not be true, FWIW:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/islamic-state/1212...

Though it might also be just Airsoft venues