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Why Europe Is Warning of Pax Americana's End

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Re: Why Europe Is Warning of Pax Americana's End

#191

Post by ionised »

nkassis wrote: post #153
65827 wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think a little chaos from the transition won't be nearly as bad as the bizarre paternalistic "we know best" puppet master horseshit that the USA is known for. Not to mention the mountains of bodies created in the process. I just hope people start questioning whatever institutions they are part of more and more, government, private or other. Trump is not on your team, neither is Facebook, neither is your employer, n…

I agree with questioning everything, I disagree with the second part of you last statement. We cannot go at it completely alone, we need institutions to fight for things as blocks. I think it be better to get more engaged. Lets not reverse thousands of years of Civilization.

The US does not represent 1000 years of civilization

Re: Why Europe Is Warning of Pax Americana's End

#192

Post by atsaloli »

yokisan wrote: post #187
geoka9 wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not true. Unless by "initiated their conflict" you mean cessation from the USSR in 1991.

Sigh . Must we? "EU investigation says Tbilisi launched indiscriminate assault on South Ossetia..with a massive artillery attack" https://www.theguardian.com/world/2009/sep/30/georgia-attack...

South Ossetia used to be part of Georgia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Ossetia

Re: Why Europe Is Warning of Pax Americana's End

#193

Post by maze-le »

yokisan wrote: post #152
zzleeper wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait wait.. Russia plainly invaded two of its neighbors, and annexes part of them. Is that just "behaving badly" in your book?

For the record: Georgia initiated their conflict with Russia.

Its never as easy as that.

First of all, if anything the conflict was primarily between Geogria and South Ossetia, Russia only intervened on behalf of South Ossetia. And before the war started, both South Ossetian seperatists and Geogian backed militiamen were accused of ethnic clensing. Georgian villages in South Ossetia were shelled by artillery, while in the northern central parts of Geogria, South Ossetian families were eveicted from their homes and driven out of the country.

It is notable that both war crimes were not comitted by regular forces but by militiamen, where it is not always clear under wich control they stood, or if the state/army has actually given orders.

Re: Why Europe Is Warning of Pax Americana's End

#194

Post by geoka9 »

yokisan wrote: post #187
geoka9 wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not true. Unless by "initiated their conflict" you mean cessation from the USSR in 1991.

Sigh . Must we? "EU investigation says Tbilisi launched indiscriminate assault on South Ossetia..with a massive artillery attack" https://www.theguardian.com/world/2009/sep/30/georgia-attack...

South Ossetia is Georgia. Which even the Russians claimed at the time.

Re: Why Europe Is Warning of Pax Americana's End

#195

Post by Kurtz79 »

jonathanstrange wrote: post #141
jerf wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem to be operating under the belief that the disintegration of the EU started three weeks ago or something? It's been an ongoing saga for years. I mean, Brexit predates Trump, and Brexit itself is the result of years of pressures. I can see why you'd be so confused by the "strategy" if you think Trump is causing it, but he's reacting to it. And my assessment of the situation is the other way around; there's not…

I doubt that the EU is falling apart, but if it ever does, then certainly more because of perceived issues rather than real ones. Although it was created democratically and by countless unanimous votes of its member states, the EU has always been an easy scapegoat for national politicians who did not do their own job right. In the UK, they quite obviously got the revenge for this behavior. (Remember, most MPs were an…

"The EU was primarily funded as a way to prevent Europe from being destroyed by inner conflicts again, which makes some sense after two devastating world wars that left Europe in ruins and killed millions of citizens. It's sad that this is sometimes forgotten and only emphasized by older politicians."

This is such an important point.

Whatever problems the EU indeed might have, its role in keeping the peace in a continent that has seen war almost uninterruptedly over the course of its history cannot be emphasized enough.

It is human nature blaming others for our own problems: as soon you cannot blame the EU anymore, you will start blaming your neighbors...

Re: Why Europe Is Warning of Pax Americana's End

#196

Post by jcranmer »

baursak wrote: post #174
Gustomaximus wrote: post #77

From the article: "It needs to move toward more military integration, which means streamlining procurement. European armies use too many different weapons systems: seventeen main battle tank families compared with just one for the U.S.; 20 types of fighter planes compared with just six; and 13 kinds of air-to-air missiles compared with three." While I dont doubt there are efficiencies to be had, I feel they fail to r…

I find it curious that it's only Europeans who are worried about Russia and their expansion threat, and the most loud about it are those who don't even have a common border with Russia. On the other hand, countries with a common border -- China, Mongolia, Kazakhstan, Azerbaijan, etc., are kind ho hum about the whole thing. I also feel compelled to partially quote Gore Vidal's old article on this: "When Japan surrende…

> I find it curious that it's only Europeans who are worried about Russia and their expansion threat, and the most loud about it are those who don't even have a common border with Russia. On the other hand, countries with a common border -- China, Mongolia, Kazakhstan, Azerbaijan, etc., are kind ho hum about the whole thing.

The Baltic states, Georgia, and Ukraine beg to differ. Three of those six states have seen unwanted interference by Russia in the past decade.

Re: Why Europe Is Warning of Pax Americana's End

#197

Post by EdiX »

jonathanstrange wrote: post #141
jerf wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem to be operating under the belief that the disintegration of the EU started three weeks ago or something? It's been an ongoing saga for years. I mean, Brexit predates Trump, and Brexit itself is the result of years of pressures. I can see why you'd be so confused by the "strategy" if you think Trump is causing it, but he's reacting to it. And my assessment of the situation is the other way around; there's not…

I doubt that the EU is falling apart, but if it ever does, then certainly more because of perceived issues rather than real ones. Although it was created democratically and by countless unanimous votes of its member states, the EU has always been an easy scapegoat for national politicians who did not do their own job right. In the UK, they quite obviously got the revenge for this behavior. (Remember, most MPs were an…

> because of perceived issues rather than real ones

10 years of stagnation or decline of GDP in all top 5 countries of the eurozone (which account for 50% of all GDP of EU) is not a perceived issue.

Re: Why Europe Is Warning of Pax Americana's End

#198

Post by bad_user »

baursak wrote: post #174
Gustomaximus wrote: post #77

From the article: "It needs to move toward more military integration, which means streamlining procurement. European armies use too many different weapons systems: seventeen main battle tank families compared with just one for the U.S.; 20 types of fighter planes compared with just six; and 13 kinds of air-to-air missiles compared with three." While I dont doubt there are efficiencies to be had, I feel they fail to r…

I find it curious that it's only Europeans who are worried about Russia and their expansion threat, and the most loud about it are those who don't even have a common border with Russia. On the other hand, countries with a common border -- China, Mongolia, Kazakhstan, Azerbaijan, etc., are kind ho hum about the whole thing. I also feel compelled to partially quote Gore Vidal's old article on this: "When Japan surrende…

> I find it curious that it's only Europeans who are worried about Russia and their expansion threat, and the most loud about it are those who don't even have a common border with Russia. On the other hand, countries with a common border -- China, Mongolia, Kazakhstan, Azerbaijan, etc., are kind ho hum about the whole thing.

That's because of what the Soviets did after WWII, and let me remind you of the Warsaw Pact countries, which included Bulgaria, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Poland, Romania, Albania and the vast Soviet Union, countries that have suffered a soviet invasion, suffered under communism and the war reparations some had to pay, along with the draining of resources by soviet enterprises.

I could tell you about Basarabia, currently part of Moldova, a territory that was taken by force under the Molotov–Ribbentrop pact, which is the agreement they did with the Nazis, a territory in which they did what Russians do when occupying a territory, which is to uproot the population by deportation and imprisonment, along with destroying the local culture and forced building of Russian settlements.

To tell you the truth, to see such an ignorant comment on HN fills me with anger that I can hardly contain.

Re: Why Europe Is Warning of Pax Americana's End

#199

Post by DarkKomunalec »

bad_user wrote: post #160
DarkKomunalec wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Xenophobia, or rational self-interest? How is the common worker better-off by allowing immigration? The only advantage I can think of is having the option of abandoning their country to seek better fortunes elsewhere (assuming immigration is a two-way street). What about the great majority who wish to stay in their own countries?

I would call it stupidity, because the biggest threat to jobs is provably automation and not immigrants. Immigrants are occupying either the low end jobs that nobody wants, like what you get in agriculture (e.g. strawberry pickers - if you don't know how that's like, try it out ;-)), cleaning services, etc, or they are occupying the high end jobs, like what you get in Silicon Valley, an industry that creates jobs, or…

You get automation either way - immigration only buys you ten or so years before the costs fall below even immigrant wages, after which you're left with unemployed immigrants.

And lets not pretend the availability of cheap labour has nothing to do with jobs being low-end.

Medical doctors sure is a funny example to give however - the USA has a lot of immigrants - how well has that worked in keeping healthcare affordable?

Re: Why Europe Is Warning of Pax Americana's End

#200

Post by realusername »

yokisan wrote: post #178
DarkKomunalec wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

France, Netherlands, Germany, and the U.K. are all countries with large and growing immigrant populations. Seeing their countries 'taken over' by foreigners, people vote for parties promising to put a stop to it. Unfortunately, there are no pro-EU parties making those promises. Quite the opposite - they prefer to chastise their people for not wanting their countries to irreversibly change. So that's how you end up wi…

It's literally this simple. Integration has been a disaster to the extent that soldiers now patrol within the borders of France and Belgium. The great opportunity-cost of integrating populations and monitoring them when it fails has clearly become too expensive and people are saying "enough". Oddly, the EU doesn't seem to acknowledge the sentiment of the public and just keep hammering on about 'ever closer union'. Cl…

Fillon stance against migrants is very harsh and even harsher than the far-right on some aspects, apparently, having a hard stance on immigrants is not enough to prevent people to vote for the far-right.
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