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Linux pioneer Munich poised to ditch open source and return to Windows

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Re: Linux pioneer Munich poised to ditch open source and return to Windows

#91

Post by bayesian_horse »

milesrout wrote: post #66
madez wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is why I see the dominance of Windows as a problem that should be dealt with on the political level. My hope for Europe is lost in this regard, but I think Russia or China could come up with something interesting.

The thing that astounds me the most is that it's the single clearest example of a monopoly in history. There really is no better example of a monopoly in any industry ever. Microsoft had >95% of desktops running Windows, and the many various government organisations all over the world tasked with preventing and dealing with these sorts of monopolies did nothing .

In all fairness, there is hardly anything to be done about it. You just can't come up with a full MS Office replacement fast enough to be relevant.

Short of completely dismantling Microsoft, or even seizing their assets by governments (two options I don't approve of), I don't see a way to break that monopoly as long as this kind of Office Software is relevant.

Re: Linux pioneer Munich poised to ditch open source and return to Windows

#92

Post by frik »

Merem wrote: post #8

Hm.. "At the time the report was released, the FSFE questioned why Accenture was commissioned to co-author a report assessing the use of Microsoft software, when the consultancy runs a joint venture with Microsoft called Avanade, which helps businesses implement Microsoft technologies. For its part, Accenture said it has an "independent view of the technology landscape". "At the time Munich began the move to LiMux in…

Lot's of comments (1600) on Heise: https://www.heise.de/forum/heise-online/News-Kommentare/Von-...

Several comments mention "läuft wie geschmiert" which can be translated as mobbed-up / bribed.

Re: Linux pioneer Munich poised to ditch open source and return to Windows

#93

Post by wiz21c »

cwyers wrote: post #53
DrScump wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Support applies to both. Maintenance cost for these two alternatives is zero, since updates are free.

Office 365 comes with paid support. As far as maintenance being zero for OpenOffice... that's not how doing IT works at all. Things will break, or users won't be able to figure out how to do things, and they WILL ask for maintenance.

my experienc eis different. When a user has a problem he goes to the colleagues he knows and then, if he's a little pro-active, he looks on the web. Pas that, in a big company, they'll just leave it there "too complicated". I don't think people ever bother to reach the person who k nows the support contact at microsoft...

And fact is, Excel or Word, are quit known everywhere so you don't need much of support.

So no, I don't think there's much of a need for support...

Re: Linux pioneer Munich poised to ditch open source and return to Windows

#94

Post by mschuster91 »

sveme wrote: post #83
mschuster91 wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Does anyone have some examples of the practical problems they experience using Linux, which can't easily be solved in any other way than going to Windows? I worked there. The biggest problems back a few years ago: 1) So-called "Fachverfahren", basically software for stuff like managing drivers' licenses or other bureaucratic procedures, is written and supplied for Windows only. Often enough that meant Munich had to…

Adding to that, a couple of months ago they had to close the KVR, the office where you have to register yourself, your car and basically have all your contacts with German bureaucracy down for a couple of days due to IT issues. As far as I know, your points 1) and 2) are the main issues. Having to work myself with software talking to Windows hardware drivers from MacOS via Parallels, I can understand the problems of…

It's not just IT issues (the IT crashes down not that often, don't let the media fool you!). It's massive staffing issues. There are way too few people employed at the public service desks, and it's easier to hide this by blaming IT. This was the case years ago, and it still is.

The lack of staff is especially a problem as the employees have to be trained in a lot of different areas of law and procedures (because the Bürgerbüros/KVR are quite generic and offer all different kinds of services), so you can't just shift employees around... and Munich has the added problem of extremely high living costs combined with extremely low, un-competitive pay.

Re: Linux pioneer Munich poised to ditch open source and return to Windows

#95

Post by buovjaga »

wiz21c wrote: post #89
buovjaga wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know what's up with the project page being gone, but the distro is not outdated. They are working on a version with KDE Plasma 5. Maybe some people don't realize, how much they have contributed upstream. For the past couple of years I have worked with them as a volunteer in LibreOffice. They regularly host hackfests for Debian & LibreOffice. There are certain parts of LibreOffice like the KDE UI backend and m…

I think they should report extensively on that to fight against the Accenture report. Not that the report is wrong, but if we want to switch to Linux everywhere, we'll have to fight on other grounds that practicality, robustness,etc. Could you ask these people to explain why they think investing in LibreOffice is worth it (and well, just remain silent if their experience is bad :-))

I heard the IT crew was left out of all hearings regarding this new proposal. So it's just "la la la cannot hear you" -level professionalism on the part of the council members.

Re: Linux pioneer Munich poised to ditch open source and return to Windows

#96

Post by vetinari »

jstewartmobile wrote: post #22
jernfrost wrote: post #16

Does anyone have some examples of the practical problems they experience using Linux, which can't easily be solved in any other way than going to Windows? It just seems odd to me given my good experience switching my fairly computer illiterate parents over to Linux previously. To be fair they presently use Mac, but I found the Linux switch a great advantage initially as I ended up with much less tech support dealing…

I've moved places from 0% Linux to around 70% Linux, but the obstacles on the road to 100% in non-tech companies are tough: - Office VBA: OpenOffice is good enough for people who just make docs and spreadsheets, but some of the more savvy folk (usually in finance and engineering) use MS Office VBA as a development platform. OpenOffice just doesn't cut it for them. - Old stuff: Critical sensors, HVAC systems, fuel man…

VBA: LibreOffice can run Python macros. Granted, the rewrite from VBA to Python is necessary, but the possibility is there and in the long term, Python is much nicer to work with than VBA.

AD: Have a look into FreeIPA. It is Active Directory equivalent for Linux and Unix systems (but not Group Policy). Centralized updates are done using Spacewalk/Satellite.

Old stuff: that's the thing with old stuff. Going forward, these things are undergoing a change to web and snmp interfaces. I'm currently looking into thermometers and moisture meters, and this is the standard.

3rd party support contracts: you don't have to accept the stock contract, ask for changes that you need. The providers are not going to say you no, it's just not there because most companies are not asking for it, so they won't be proactive in providing that.

Re: Linux pioneer Munich poised to ditch open source and return to Windows

#97

Post by pas »

lallysingh wrote: post #30
BrailleHunting wrote: post #19

Note the report on which the recommendation was based was authored by a derivative of the Big5 firm which helped Enron. (Arthur Anderson -> Accenture) Technology consultants inventing expensive "customer need" projects is nothing new.

Let's hit the real point. When MS moved it's headquarters there, they hired a whole bunch of Munich voters.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13627525

Re: Linux pioneer Munich poised to ditch open source and return to Windows

#98

Post by pas »

ksk wrote: post #34

It's sad that we won't actually get a list of problems that devs can tackle. Even so, I can entertain the thought of there being no ulterior motives, and that maybe Linux isn't actually an OS that everyone likes or wants to use.

Most of the problems are .. well, systemic, not much the devs can really tackle: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13627452

Re: Linux pioneer Munich poised to ditch open source and return to Windows

#99

Post by dukeluke »

bayesian_horse wrote: post #91
milesrout wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing that astounds me the most is that it's the single clearest example of a monopoly in history. There really is no better example of a monopoly in any industry ever. Microsoft had >95% of desktops running Windows, and the many various government organisations all over the world tasked with preventing and dealing with these sorts of monopolies did nothing .

In all fairness, there is hardly anything to be done about it. You just can't come up with a full MS Office replacement fast enough to be relevant. Short of completely dismantling Microsoft, or even seizing their assets by governments (two options I don't approve of), I don't see a way to break that monopoly as long as this kind of Office Software is relevant.

Exactly. An industry with a high barrier to entry is prone to becoming a monopoly.

Re: Linux pioneer Munich poised to ditch open source and return to Windows

#100

Post by _0ffh »

nisa wrote: post #58
jernfrost wrote: post #16

Does anyone have some examples of the practical problems they experience using Linux, which can't easily be solved in any other way than going to Windows? It just seems odd to me given my good experience switching my fairly computer illiterate parents over to Linux previously. To be fair they presently use Mac, but I found the Linux switch a great advantage initially as I ended up with much less tech support dealing…

What you can read about the topic in Germany is that the switch had a lot of ideology behind it and after more than 13 years people are still unhappy. You have to consider this is an administration of one of the largest cities in Germany with lot's of custom processes and tools. Also workers there vary from their IT background and I guess most are not power users. Their approach was basically eliminate Windows everyw…

"more or less forced them to use this"

Well, but that's how it works, isn't it? I wish I could go to an employer and say "Please remove that horrible MS Office 2013 from my computer, it is a steaming pile of orc manure, and I will not be forced to use it!", but that's just not how companies (or bureaucracies) work.

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