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H-1B visas mainly go to Indian outsourcing firms

economist.com

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Re: H-1B visas mainly go to Indian outsourcing firms

#371

Post by sumedh »

vikascoder wrote: post #253
oh_sigh wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would we need H1Bs for fresh graduates, unless they are graduates in some very niche speciality (maybe machine learning?). Aren't H1Bs for skilled workers where they can't find an American equivalent? Is it really the case that there aren't enough fresh American grads graduating every year?

This is because H1-B is the "only" way for an international fresh grad to work in the US. This is a direct result of US immigration policy which ties up the visa process with the need for an employer sponsorship and more importantly the ability to acquire permanent residence is also tied up to employer sponsorship which leads to "indentured" servitude as many folks around here point out. Compare it with let's say Ger…

> Same is the case with Canada and Australia.

Australia also has a working visa which is tied to the employer.

Re: H-1B visas mainly go to Indian outsourcing firms

#372

Post by sumedh »

almightykrish wrote: post #312
loph wrote: post #103

This one sentence says it all: "The Economist found that between 2012 and 2015 the three biggest Indian outsourcing firms—TCS, Wipro and Infosys—submitted over 150,000 visa applications for positions that paid a median salary of $69,500. In contrast, America’s five biggest tech firms—Apple, Amazon, Facebook, Google and Microsoft—submitted just 31,000 applications, and proposed to pay their workers a median salary of…

Ex TCS employee here: Not only the employees are paid meagerly, the benefits most seem to have are literally nothing. Health and Medical Coverage are very poor. Provides only basic coverage. No Life Insurance. Never heard of anyone being paid overtime. Most employees of these companies would be mostly working in odd hours to manage off shore teams.

> Never heard of anyone being paid overtime.

Which Indian IT company (outsourcing or a product) based pays overtime in India?

Re: H-1B visas mainly go to Indian outsourcing firms

#373

Post by sumedh »

steevenwee wrote: post #247
bonzini wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And why do they need an H1B visa for the employee then?

Because they won't be able to get domestic forces for that money. I'm not saying that it is the way to go, but there might be businesses that can only exist on h1bs. So we should definitely reform this, but be cautious. Execution should not be the same as the ban, rolled out without any kind of consideration or preparation.

> Because they won't be able to get domestic forces for that money.

The problem is many companies who can afford to pay good money to Americans dont hire Americans when they can just hire H1Bs at a lower salary.

Re: H-1B visas mainly go to Indian outsourcing firms

#374

Post by an_cap »

mac01021 wrote: post #33
koolba wrote: post #30

What's the argument against using an auction for H1-B visas rather than a lottery? That'd maximize the tax collected from their salaries and ensure the salaries are on par with the going rate for said workers. Arguably it's in the interests of everyone besides companies trying to get cheaper labor via H1-B visas. The only counterpoint I've ever heard is " It's not fair for company XYZ in low cost of living Podunk, US…

Considering things from the point of view of the immigrant, the current h1b system seems to me like the only route to immigration for a person who is not exceptionally skilled or wealthy or connected. So there are definitely people who would like to immigrate who would lose out if it became an auction. I'm not saying those people should necessarily be a major consideration, but you did say "everyone besides companies…

I just wanted to thank you for putting the point of view of an aspiring immigrant into the conversation. Just recently my sister completed a coding bootcamp in NYC and would gladly accept all the 'abuses' associated with being an H1B holder and then some to be able to work as a software developer in the US.

I ask for no special treatment for my sister, just the decency of not using the immense power of the state from preventing her for working for a willing employer. Sort of how we don't ban black people from working as software developers even if they replace white people.

Re: H-1B visas mainly go to Indian outsourcing firms

#375

Post by emidln »

dlp211 wrote: post #360
emidln wrote: post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The entire South would face a skills shortage. Maybe the "entire South" should increase their rates if they want to compete on talent. I have no sympathy for a company that can't find talent because "we don't pay SV rates because we're not in SV".

That's not the real issue. The real issue is that tech workers are not the only one's coming here on H1B, and those professions don't pay nearly what an SDE gets paid.

The premise of my post was a change to an auction-style H1B program.

Let's assume there is a $FooCorp in Alabama looking for a SysAdmin but not having much luck. They'd like to spend $70k and enter the H1B lottery under our current system. Maybe they win, maybe they lose but can hire an H1B for $80k from $OutsourcingFirm. Under an auction system, let's examine what happens instead.

$Hooli (and other SV companies) are offering $135k for SDEs. Because $135k > $70k no H1Bs can be imported as SysAdmins for $70k. This raises the cost of SysAdmin work across the country for employers. The new baseline is now somewhere above $70k which is the price it takes to attract citizens (or otherwise eligible residents) to $FooCorp.

Under an auction system, $FooCorp still needs a SysAdmin and they have 3 options:

(1) do without a SysAdmin

(2) pay more than $70K to attract an already eligible to work SysAdmin to Alabama

(3) pay more for a SysAdmin than SV pays SDEs in order to hire an H1B

Let's look at those options. If they need a SysAdmin, the first option isn't really feasible. If the role is optional, this might be a situation where they decide to do without. That means there are two options left, and the rational decision depends on what the true market value of a SysAdmin currently is. If $FooCorp can pay a citizen $100k to move to Alabama, there isn't a skills shortage. If $FooCorp can't find anyone to move to Alabama to be a SysAdmin for less than $135k, there might be a legitimate skills shortage and then the H1B program is attractive again.

It's worth noting that if $FooCorp can't find a SysAdmin for less than a SDE to move to Alabama, the true value of a SysAdmin is at least $135k (in this example). Under the current system, SysAdmins are being short-changed, both H1Bs and other eligible SysAdmins in our workforce.

There is no such thing as a skills shortage. There are only greedy employers looking to abuse a system to underpay all workers, whether they are H1Bs or otherwise authorized to work. Anyone who tells you there is a skills shortage is making money off telling you that. Don't be a sucker.

Re: H-1B visas mainly go to Indian outsourcing firms

#376

Post by sumedh »

kls wrote: post #32
planetjones wrote: post #21

Is this disagreeing with Blake Irvine. See https://www.google.co.uk/amp/amp.timeinc.net/fortune/2017/02... This is the man who refers to H1B visas as genius visas. I have worked with many Indian outsourcing companies and while talented people do exist, calling their employees genius is wholly inaccurate (as would be calling most software devs in the Western world genius). I did laugh when I read irving's original pos…

The problem is the incentive system. I have never been known for my lack of directness and in given so, I used to work with an Indian developer who was very good at his job. So one day I just flat out asked him, I said Karthick why do a good portion of Indian developers suck, his response floored me. Without missing a beat he responded, look it's a misaligned incentive system. When I go back to India the first questi…

> I said Karthick why do a good portion of Indian developers suck

If you peanuts you get monkeys. The Indian developers who dont suck are not working in your company because they are getting a good salary somewhere else.

Re: H-1B visas mainly go to Indian outsourcing firms

#377

Post by cmdrfred »

pm90 wrote: post #339
cmdrfred wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://studentloans.gov suggests otherwise. They are called subsidized loans. More data here: https://studentaid.ed.gov/sa/types/loans/subsidized-unsubsid...

I am not debating the existence of subsidized loans. I am questioning the correlation b/w subsidized loans and high tuition which you seem to be making. e.g. https://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/05/opinion/sunday/the-real-r...

Do you disagree that subsidized loans would increase demand, or do you disagree that increased demand would raise prices?

Re: H-1B visas mainly go to Indian outsourcing firms

#378

Post by arcticbull »

refurb wrote: post #352
arcticbull wrote: post #308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It still about $6000 in filing fees and premium processing fees on top of the legal fees and meeting any other requirements the business has to meet to be in a place to sponsor them in the first place.

My experience with a large multi-national was that they outsourced all of the immigration work to outside legal firms. This firm hired a lot of immigrants, but I don't think it makes sense to hire full time legal immigration experts.

The $6000 is USCIS filing fees, legal fees are on top of that, broken down as:

$325 base + $1500 AICWA + $500 fraud protection fee + [potential $4000 Public Law 114-113 fee] + [optional $1125 premium processing fee] = $6325 + [optional $1125].

Legal fees vary from $500 to $3000 on top of that.

[1] http://redbus2us.com/h1b-visa-2017-filing-fee-summary/

Re: H-1B visas mainly go to Indian outsourcing firms

#379

Post by sjg007 »

Declanomous wrote: post #294
geodel wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Though I do not have doctor friends in US so I may be wrong but I have heard from many that even family doctors here start with 200K pa almost anywhere in US. Now apart from top end software/banking most would not reach that number by end of career in software/IT.

That's true, but you can easily reach a six figure salary in software or IT, and you'll essentially have been in the workforce for twice as long as the doctor if you retire at 65. How much you make really depends on your specialty as well. Cosmetic surgeons, anesthesiologists and radiologists make a lot more money than general practitioners. Pediatric anything does not make much money. Cosmetic surgeons make an absol…

That 6 figure IT salary is only recent AND doctors make 2-3x that.

Re: H-1B visas mainly go to Indian outsourcing firms

#380

Post by sjg007 »

Declanomous wrote: post #290
FireBeyond wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lifetime earning parity... Let's make three assumptions: * person in IT has zero education debt (per your example). Not likely, but okay * retirement at 65 * no promotion, pay raises * education debt is at zero per cent (but since we're saying the IT worker has none, it balances a little) IT worker has 38 years of useful career at $85K. Earnings: $3.23M Physician has 30 years of useful career at $175K. Earnings: $5.2…

You are ignoring a lot of really important factors, such as investments. Obviously if neither person invests any money then the doctor will come out ahead at the end. Furthermore, if you are making $85k a year and haven't paid off your BA by the time you are 27 you are a moron. Plus, most of the debt the doctor will have is probably in the 6.5% range. Regardless, I'm not saying that a doctor will make less than an IT…

Dunno man.. 1.75M is a lot of ground to cover in investment vs base salary alone..
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